General Politics Discussion

[ac3r]

It's okay to say the country is broken and/or fractured. Recognizing and admitting to that reality is a good thing and the initial step to hopefully improvement. Everyone can see what is going on out there where people can barely afford to eat, housing is some of the most costly in the world, homelessness and drug addiction is everywhere, infrastructure is falling apart, sociopolitical division is growing, media is a mess, our political parties are clueless, GDP per capita is in a recession, we're getting more and more in dept (something like 100'000'000 per day and constantly growing; nearly 1.5 trillion dollars in debt), certain crimes are growing, people feel uneasy, the country has been absolutely flooded with people who have zero reason to be here but were given a free pass because we need bodies to operate the local Tim Hortons...and so on and so on.

We can point to statistics that say this or that is improving, but the general attitude most Canadians have is that we're fucked. Nobody really cares if some study says X has improved XX% when they exist day by day in financial anxiety and general unease, when people struggle to find basic jobs, when they see dope fiends roaming the streets like zombies. Our Prime Minister resigned because millions of people hate the guy and think he's useless. For him to step down is a sign that things are not working and people desperately want change. Pierre Poilievre could be good or he could be even worse, we don't really know. But clearly Canada is at the point where people are willing to risk even more chaos with the hope that maybe things will improve.

And unrelated, what does "sounding like ex-Twitter" mean? Haha. Seeing points of view that differ from yours?

[Acitta]

And unrelated, what does "sounding like ex-Twitter" mean? Haha. Seeing points of view that differ from yours?

It was a joke.

[Acitta]

It's okay to say the country is broken and/or fractured. Recognizing and admitting to that reality is a good thing and the initial step to hopefully improvement. Everyone can see what is going on out there where people can barely afford to eat, housing is some of the most costly in the world, homelessness and drug addiction is everywhere, infrastructure is falling apart, sociopolitical division is growing, media is a mess, our political parties are clueless, GDP per capita is in a recession, we're getting more and more in dept (something like 100'000'000 per day and constantly growing; nearly 1.5 trillion dollars in debt), certain crimes are growing, people feel uneasy, the country has been absolutely flooded with people who have zero reason to be here but were given a free pass because we need bodies to operate the local Tim Hortons...and so on and so on.

We can point to statistics that say this or that is improving, but the general attitude most Canadians have is that we're fucked. Nobody really cares if some study says X has improved XX% when they exist day by day in financial anxiety and general unease, when people struggle to find basic jobs, when they see dope fiends roaming the streets like zombies. Our Prime Minister resigned because millions of people hate the guy and think he's useless. For him to step down is a sign that things are not working and people desperately want change. Pierre Poilievre could be good or he could be even worse, we don't really know. But clearly Canada is at the point where people are willing to risk even more chaos with the hope that maybe things will improve.

Canada is not broken. There are serious problems that need solving, but it is not "broken". That is just fearmongering by the Conservatives and right-wing extremists to justify policies destroying our social safety net by selling out to corporations.

[plam]

It's okay to say the country is broken and/or fractured. Recognizing and admitting to that reality is a good thing and the initial step to hopefully improvement. Everyone can see what is going on out there where people can barely afford to eat, housing is some of the most costly in the world, homelessness and drug addiction is everywhere, infrastructure is falling apart, sociopolitical division is growing, media is a mess, our political parties are clueless, GDP per capita is in a recession, we're getting more and more in dept (something like 100'000'000 per day and constantly growing; nearly 1.5 trillion dollars in debt), certain crimes are growing, people feel uneasy, the country has been absolutely flooded with people who have zero reason to be here but were given a free pass because we need bodies to operate the local Tim Hortons...and so on and so on.

We can point to statistics that say this or that is improving, but the general attitude most Canadians have is that we're fucked. Nobody really cares if some study says X has improved XX% when they exist day by day in financial anxiety and general unease, when people struggle to find basic jobs, when they see dope fiends roaming the streets like zombies. Our Prime Minister resigned because millions of people hate the guy and think he's useless. For him to step down is a sign that things are not working and people desperately want change. Pierre Poilievre could be good or he could be even worse, we don't really know. But clearly Canada is at the point where people are willing to risk even more chaos with the hope that maybe things will improve.

Canada is not broken. There are serious problems that need solving, but it is not "broken". That is just fearmongering by the Conservatives and right-wing extremists to justify policies destroying our social safety net by selling out to corporations.

I'll second that, and I'll also say that if there is a problem that is a problem everywhere in the world, the Liberals are probably not the cause of the problem.

[Kodra24]

Liberals are not the cause of the problem? My goodness after all that's happened for someone to say something like this...

The amount of people that I know, and know of, that have moved out of Canada in the last 2-3 years must be nearing triple digits, and many are well educated professionals seeking a better life for themselves and their families

I applaud their courage but I'm also sad to witness it - this was never a talking point prior to Trudeau devastating this country...you'd be looked at like you had two heads for wanting to emigrate somewhere else, now it's like "yea, I get it, go for it, wish you all the best"

I voted for Trudeau the first time around, will never vote Liberal again

[neonjoe]

This isn't new, I'd have to guess that of my cohort of mid-2000s Comp Eng Grads only about 25-30% stayed in Canada after graduation most went to the states. So this is nothing new, when you are a young professional there's a much greater propensity to take the risk for more reward, the US offers that but the downside is that if you do fall between the cracks, you fall much further. As you get older, having that safety net is worthwhile. My American mother was lucky to have moved to Canada, she had health issues for years from the late 80s until she passed in 2017, she would have been bankrupted down there.
Things have become more expensive, but that's a global problem. Do things need to change domestically, yes, it always does and a stagnant government is never good as it will stop making changes to improve things. I do feel that most of the backlash currently isn't objectively thought out but rather from an emotional point of view.
Canada is NOT BROKE, it's just a work in progress and some things have declined but relative to other places it's still quite good. The world is just far worse than it has been in our generation and this is reflected here too, like an illness it spreads.

[plam]

Liberals are not the cause of the problem? My goodness after all that's happened for someone to say something like this...

The amount of people that I know, and know of, that have moved out of Canada in the last 2-3 years must be nearing triple digits, and many are well educated professionals seeking a better life for themselves and their families

I applaud their courage but I'm also sad to witness it - this was never a talking point prior to Trudeau devastating this country...you'd be looked at like you had two heads for wanting to emigrate somewhere else, now it's like "yea, I get it, go for it, wish you all the best"

I voted for Trudeau the first time around, will never vote Liberal again

No really, point me at a country that is not having the same problems as Canada. As neonjoe says, people have always moved from Canada to the US. That is also nothing new.

[dtkvictim]

This is not in defense of Harper or a potential Poilievre government (many of our issues began before Trudeau and will continue after), but consider that many people don't care to hear about how great things are and be lectured with statistics that fly in the face of their own realities.

• Economic growth under Trudeau was 41%. Under Harper it was 18%.
  
• During the Trudeau years income growth was 23%. During the Harper decade it was 7.6%.
  

It's not helpful to compare across two disparate periods of time with different conditions, rather than comparing with contemporaries. Factors like inflation and wealth distribution also need to be considered. People don't care to hear how to economy has grown while their own finances have become worse. GDP growth fueled by population growth is also pretty much meaningless for all except those at the top, and is viewed especially negatively when GDP per capita is falling.

• Median Canadian net worth soared 66% between 2016 and 2023.
  

Assuming this is fueled by housing prices, this is not a good thing. I'm not sure how net worth is being calculated here for households, if the median Canadian is a homeowner or not.

• Trudeau reduced poverty from 14.5% to 9.0%. Conservatives always want to make it higher to increase stress levels, suppress wages, lower taxes for the wealthy and punish the poor.
  

I'm not saying this is false, and it's quite commendable, but it's hard to reconcile with exploding homeless populations and food banks being overwhelmed by record usage.

On the topic of questionable statistics, we're also told that unemployment is 6-7%. Yet at someone looking for a job, and as someone with a large number of well educated peers looking for jobs, I can tell you that things feel much, much worse than just 6%. Many people I know are well over a year into their job search, and struggling to find even entry level/unskilled work to hold them over while they continue to search within their fields.

Lastly, I understand a taboo topic in progressive spaces for whatever reason, but people are dealing with the societal effects of recent immigration policy (alongside economic effects). These are more difficult to measure, but I think make up a huge amount of the anti-Liberal sentiment. I've never seen people willing to discuss their feelings on the topic so frankly, especially in person and in public.

[plam]

No really, point me at a country that is not having the same problems as Canada. As neonjoe says, people have always moved from Canada to the US. That is also nothing new.

Also I'll point out that NZ went and elected a conservative ("National") government last year and now it turns out the economy and social security net are both objectively much worse than last year. Lots of NZers are moving to Australia.

[ac3r]

Liberals are not the cause of the problem? My goodness after all that's happened for someone to say something like this...

Just keep in mind what website you're on haha...

[danbrotherston]

No really, point me at a country that is not having the same problems as Canada. As neonjoe says, people have always moved from Canada to the US. That is also nothing new.

Also I'll point out that NZ went and elected a conservative ("National") government last year and now it turns out the economy and social security net are both objectively much worse than last year. Lots of NZers are moving to Australia.

Normally I'd say that it's a shame that our electoral system means the Conservatives are the likely winner when the Liberals do badly, but even in countries with better electoral systems like the Netherlands, are still seeing a strongly conservative wave.

It really is a shame that people are marking such bad choices for themselves in the face of an increasingly problematic neoconservative world.

But I fear none of this really matters...unfortunately the US is the 800 lbs gorilla in the room with us...at this point I fear the POTUS has more influence over the future of our country than we do. And honestly the weapons grade insanity that is the US election of Trump is not something the world will overcome easily.

[tomh009]

The amount of people that I know, and know of, that have moved out of Canada in the last 2-3 years must be nearing triple digits, and many are well educated professionals seeking a better life for themselves and their families

I shake my head at anyone leaving the country because of the variery of federal (or provincial) government in power at any given time. With our political system, you know that there will be a change of government in an election or two, our system, flawed as it is, pretty much guarantees that parties don't stay in power for more than about 5-10 years.

[ac3r]

It could be that people just aren't as neoliberal as they were/are, considering there's waves of rising conservative and populist politics. The knee jerk reaction may be to say it's not the people but rather people in power pushing that, but for that to be valid you have to assume democracy isn't actually working. I'd like to think the country has enough sovereignty that populist politicians in Italy or Hungary aren't influencing us. I find it silly our media is giving so much attention to Trump saying he wants to force us to become a state. He's just a really funny guy that trolls people. He's not really pulling the strings of Canadian politicians.

The reality is that people are losing faith in neoliberal politics because they have obviously not been working sufficiently in people's favour, thus they are fed up with a multitude of issues plaguing societies all around the world.

Are conservative leaning parties the answer right now? Who really knows. Fiscal conservative policies may indeed help in some ways, considering how bad people are struggling financially (not just people, but governments). Will they hail the end of the free world and bring about extreme socially conservative values, or fascism-lite as some clowns like to imply? Absolutely not, especially in Canada. Our Conservative party is basically left leaning when you analyze them at their base philosophy. Will they screw some things up? Of course, but all parties do. It would be great if other parties were able to represent us better but sadly it never works that way here. Perhaps the NDP will work some magic and get voted in, but it's fairly clear we'll have a conservative government come next election. We'll just have to see how they do and, maybe for once, not be apathetic and actually hold them accountable for any failures. We gave the Liberals many years and they failed so bad our Prime Minister resigned in shame.

[cherrypark]

Fiscal conservative policies may indeed help in some ways, considering how bad people are struggling financially (not just people, but governments).

Meanwhile there is nothing fiscally conservative other than trying to starve and forestall select public services in Ontario provincially, while lighting money on fire for other pet projects.

I genuinely do not understand when people paint elimination of social supports and government services instead of efforts to make them more effective as somehow helping "the little guy" unless you are implying those most struggling are the middle and upper classes?

This is not an endorsement of the current or prior Liberal governments at either level. Just a silly framing people give to right/left politics and its supposed outcomes.

[danbrotherston]

Fiscal conservative policies may indeed help in some ways, considering how bad people are struggling financially (not just people, but governments).

Meanwhile there is nothing fiscally conservative other than trying to starve and forestall select public services in Ontario provincially, while lighting money on fire for other pet projects.

I genuinely do not understand when people paint elimination of social supports and government services instead of efforts to make them more effective as somehow helping "the little guy" unless you are implying those most struggling are the middle and upper classes?

This is not an endorsement of the current or prior Liberal governments at either level. Just a silly framing people give to right/left politics and its supposed outcomes.

Indeed. At this point voting Conservative in the hopes of fiscally conservative policies is like moving to the DPRK expecting a bastion of democracy.