Farmland conversion and landfill sites

[danbrotherston]

Immense environmental destruction...yes...absolutely serious.

As for cultural destruction, *I* a person who has never set foot on a farm, has heard of and enjoyed the products from at least one of the farms. So there is absolutely a loss of local businesses that have a presence in the community.

To me, that's cultural destruction, but you might think of a different term, but please don't tell me that my favourite local cheese is not important.

But again, if this was an analogous situation, like, all the small business restaurants and shops that must close on a block to make way for a new highrise development downtown, I would (and have) acknowledged that as a loss when it happens (but i that case, it is often one I think is worth it, because other costs are much lower).

So, the loss of a local business (yes, farming is a business, even if it's a subsidized and trade-protected one) would generally count as cultural destruction?

I mean, that's how I was framing it. You can frame it differently, and that's reasonable too...but I do think that losing local businesses like that is some kind of loss to the community, that isn't matched by gaining the presence of a large multi-national corporation.

[westwardloo]

So, the loss of a local business (yes, farming is a business, even if it's a subsidized and trade-protected one) would generally count as cultural destruction?

I mean, that's how I was framing it. You can frame it differently, and that's reasonable too...but I do think that losing local businesses like that is some kind of loss to the community, that isn't matched by gaining the presence of a large multi-national corporation.

There are hundreds of local manufacturing businesses that provide parts for Toyota. All of which would not exist if the Region did not have Toyota. The presence of a large multi-nation corporation sprouts out 1000's of additional jobs not directly related to the plant.

[ac3r]

Indeed. Everything from auto parts, railroad jobs, logistics, manufacturing, trucking, bus operators...heck even custodial positions.

I can't imagine being in such a privileged position that one would argue that more jobs are a bad thing - and a cultural travesty (whatever that means). It's harder than ever to find work, so we should welcome any potential new business or industrial operations in our region. That will provide significantly more benefit to our community than a small number of farms will.

[westwardloo]

Indeed. Everything from auto parts, railroad jobs, logistics, manufacturing, trucking, bus operators...heck even custodial positions.

I can't imagine being in such a privileged position that one would argue that more jobs are a bad thing - and a cultural travesty (whatever that means). It's harder than ever to find work, so we should welcome any potential new business or industrial operations in our region. That will provide significantly more benefit to our community than a small number of farms will.

The privileged position is key here. I don't think some people realize how poorly our economy is actually doing. We can't continue to rely only on the Tech sector for job growth in this Region. I image if we somehow fumble this, Hamilton or London will have no problem gobbling up farm land for a multi-billion dollar investment.

[bravado]

I get it - if the current reality means governments giving out incentives to big companies to come here, then that’s a sad state of affairs.

But it still actually is the current state and we better keep competing or else. That one Toyota plant generates an outrageous amount of activity that I don’t think many downtown Google-type workers ever see or think about. Which is fine, but it’s important to point it out.

I genuinely wish we didn’t live in this current economic state, but we do…

[cherrypark]

I think the instinct for the countryside line protection is fine but really if this is about another TMMC scale plant coming to the region and the secondary jobs that would create as well, the productive farmland conversation just has less relevancy than when its getting consumed by economically unsustainable housing. We need jobs and industry to prosper.

All that to say the lack of clear answers to why here, why so secret and why not in areas already zoned for industrial is a communications failure that has doomed whatever good news story might be there on a new major employer in the region.

[westwardloo]

I think the instinct for the countryside line protection is fine but really if this is about another TMMC scale plant coming to the region and the secondary jobs that would create as well, the productive farmland conversation just has less relevancy than when its getting consumed by economically unsustainable housing. We need jobs and industry to prosper.

All that to say the lack of clear answers to why here, why so secret and why not in areas already zoned for industrial is a communications failure that has doomed whatever good news story might be there on a new major employer in the region.

I can agree that there has been a failure in terms of communications, but rarely do you win when dealing with farmers (Look at Oxford Counties anti HSR campaign).  I do think it is a bit naive of the public to think a deal like this can be negotiate in the public eye. They are doing it behind closed doors and a land speculator already tried to swoop in and make a quick buck off the deal. For your second point, show me where in  the Region there is 700+ acres zoned for industrial? The answer is it doesn't exist, hence why we need to find it outside of existing zoned areas. A factory like this isn't very common, cities rarely just have 1000+ acres of unused industrial lands waiting for a tenant.  I do think the area was chosen due to its proximity to power source, HWY and Rail line. I have said it before and I will say it again, I think a better location would be in Woolwich between Shantz station and Townline. But I would rather it be in Wilmot then in London or Hamilton or more likely the US or Mexico.

[Bytor]

I'm surprised that there would be much opposition to potentially thousands of well-paid manufacturing jobs.  Not the Kitchener I grew up in.

Such that you're willing to overlook the underhanded, shady, and unethical way this has been gone about?

Because of that way in which this project has been undertaken, we don;t even know if they considered non-agricultural lands, like this part of Cambridge that is already zone industrial and considered part of the built-up area by the Regional Official Plan.

[ac3r]

That area is already under development. They've been building roads and some buildings there for some time.

[Bytor]

There are other areas near there, though, that are not being built already, which is kinda my point. We do not know if due diligence was done.

[panamaniac]

I'm surprised that there would be much opposition to potentially thousands of well-paid manufacturing jobs.  Not the Kitchener I grew up in.

Such that you're willing to overlook the underhanded, shady, and unethical way this has been gone about?

Because of that way in which this project has been undertaken, we don;t even know if they considered non-agricultural lands, like this part of Cambridge that is already zone industrial and considered part of the built-up area by the Regional Official Plan.

If this involves such activity, it will come out eventually but, so far, I see only commercial confidentiality.

[danbrotherston]

Continuing to talk about the benefits, does not actually acknowledge the harms. And yes, another city will no doubt be willing to pave their farm land...and they will incur the harms instead of us as well.

Like...we either believe that sprawl is bad or we don't. This is sprawl.

It's also clearly unnecessary as Bytor points out there are already lands within the boundary that could satisfy whatever this is.

As for how the economy is doing...why do you feel the economy is doing "quite poor". Relying too much on the tech industry is fragile...just as relying too much on manufacturing was before. But last time I checked the economy was doing fine...fragile is not the same as "poorly". So has something changed?

[ZEBuilder]

Continuing to talk about the benefits, does not actually acknowledge the harms. And yes, another city will no doubt be willing to pave their farm land...and they will incur the harms instead of us as well.

Like...we either believe that sprawl is bad or we don't. This is sprawl.

It's also clearly unnecessary as Bytor points out there are already lands within the boundary that could satisfy whatever this is.

As for how the economy is doing...why do you feel the economy is doing "quite poor". Relying too much on the tech industry is fragile...just as relying too much on manufacturing was before. But last time I checked the economy was doing fine...fragile is not the same as "poorly". So has something changed?

Sure it is sprawl but the truth is there is no where to build something that large within the existing countryside line which would natural mean more sprawl, the area that Bytor points out is already being developed with warehouses, you have the entire iPort complex going in along Allendale Rd you also have everything along Boychuk Dr and Intermarket Rd. Plus everything that is already approved for that area.

This is the entire iPort complex which takes up practically the entire Middle Block Rd/Fountain/Allendale/Intermarket Rd block.
   

Then down around Boychuk/Intermarket you also have a pile of stuff approved (Creekside Phase 2, IP park phase 1) so the truth of the matter is that entire block that Bytor pointed out is already being developed.

Now sure there is additional lands in Cambridge to the north of Toyota and East of Loblaws, however there is also a wetland in there which means one can only really fit some smaller warehouses and manufacturing space in there. Certainly not something that is going to need 700+ acres of land, hence why the region is looking outside of the country side line. Sure one could argue that putting it close to all the existing industrial in Cambridge makes sense, or even by the airport, but there just isn't the magnitude of land required for whatever the Region is doing in the existing built up area.

[ijmorlan]

Remind me again why Kitchener Frame is being redeveloped into a bunch of small parcels? Shouldn’t it have just been kept in reserve if it’s so important to have large industrial parcels available? Almost 50 hectares: you could have squeezed in a hospital, even!

[danbrotherston]

Not to mention that if there was a need for a parcel this large, the time to deal with it was when the regional plan was put together, not secretly after the fact.

This is quite clearly a betrayal of that process, and a betrayal of the work people have been putting forwards for more than two decades on these issues.

Again, I find it utterly ridiculous how sacrosanct you folks see jobs. I mean, I am not opposed to jobs, but I recognize the costs here. Frankly, it's becoming more and more telling how much more supportive people are of this, than housing. Like I've said several times, if this was a housing development, nobody here would be supporting it. But we have a housing crisis, not an unemployment crisis...so what exactly gives?