King-Victoria Transit Hub

[taylortbb]

The site plans for phase 1 are available at https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...entId=2458 , and you can read the full report that the article is based on at https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...entId=2457 .

I actually think the phase 1 plans look pretty reasonable. They're going to let Metrolinx build all of the in-corridor stuff (train platforms/shelters/etc, pedestrian tunnels for Waterloo + Duke streets), and they're just going to build the bus loop, bus waiting area, bike parking, and MUT bridge over King St. That will get us to a functional transit facility at King/Victoria, without the extravagance of the building that's mostly just a waiting area. Hopefully by the time we get to phase 2 the question of shops inside the building will be re-visited.

[danbrotherston]

The site plans for phase 1 are available at https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...entId=2458 , and you can read the full report that the article is based on at https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...entId=2457 .

I actually think the phase 1 plans look pretty reasonable. They're going to let Metrolinx build all of the in-corridor stuff (train platforms/shelters/etc, pedestrian tunnels for Waterloo + Duke streets), and they're just going to build the bus loop, bus waiting area, bike parking, and MUT bridge over King St. That will get us to a functional transit facility at King/Victoria, without the extravagance of the building that's mostly just a waiting area. Hopefully by the time we get to phase 2 the question of shops inside the building will be re-visited.

I mean, that phasing will make it even clearer how bad a project it is. "Oh look, 70 million dollars for a waiting room..." Honestly...this is the kind of project that makes people lose faith in their gov.

[the_conestoga_guy]

Schedule Update
The timing of the Region’s Phase 1 work is driven by Metrolinx’s construction schedule.
In the updated project schedule, based on the 95% design, it is anticipated that
Metrolinx will start construction in late 2023 and be fully complete in 2027. The Region
understands the updates to the schedule are related to further development of the
construction staging plan as the design advanced, as well as utility work and
unforeseen geotechnical conditions associated with recent changes in the site layout.

Due to the complex nature and close adjacent sites, construction cannot be completed
concurrently. Based on the current Metrolinx schedule, Region’s work will begin
spring/summer 2024 with completion in April 2027. The Region and Metrolinx will work
collaboratively together to expedite and confirm the schedule in upcoming months.

I appreciate that there will be some challenges around the site grading, but this seems like an incredibly conservative estimate for just completing phase 1 of the work. (Unless they're hiring Drewlo to build this...)


I also can't say that I understand the justification for including a 26 space parking lot with added street parking on Victoria itself, when there's only 4 bus stops. This is to be the central station for the entire Region and is supposed to include "various intercity bus providers" in addition to GRT buses. Yet other less-important stations have more bus capacity? I hope this is reconsidered before they construct this.

Other than that, I'm super excited to see shovels in the ground for this project!

[tomh009]

I think the number of bus bays is based on GRT route plans. Not that many routes will actually connect to the LRT at this station.

[danbrotherston]

Schedule Update
The timing of the Region’s Phase 1 work is driven by Metrolinx’s construction schedule.
In the updated project schedule, based on the 95% design, it is anticipated that
Metrolinx will start construction in late 2023 and be fully complete in 2027. The Region
understands the updates to the schedule are related to further development of the
construction staging plan as the design advanced, as well as utility work and
unforeseen geotechnical conditions associated with recent changes in the site layout.

Due to the complex nature and close adjacent sites, construction cannot be completed
concurrently. Based on the current Metrolinx schedule, Region’s work will begin
spring/summer 2024 with completion in April 2027. The Region and Metrolinx will work
collaboratively together to expedite and confirm the schedule in upcoming months.

I appreciate that there will be some challenges around the site grading, but this seems like an incredibly conservative estimate for just completing phase 1 of the work. (Unless they're hiring Drewlo to build this...)


I also can't say that I understand the justification for including a 26 space parking lot with added street parking on Victoria itself, when there's only 4 bus stops. This is to be the central station for the entire Region and is supposed to include "various intercity bus providers" in addition to GRT buses. Yet other less-important stations have more bus capacity? I hope this is reconsidered before they construct this.

Other than that, I'm super excited to see shovels in the ground for this project!

Oh, I'm sure they will reconsider...26 parking spaces is positively anemic for regional planning doctrine. Parking spaces on Victoria are also an unsurprising add, I mean, how can you improve a dangerous high speed unpleasant road like Victoria St. except by adding parking to the mix.

That being said, the timeline seems entirely reasonable. It takes time to spend tens of millions of dollars. In less snarky terms, they do have to build two railway underpasses. Those can both take a year easy...at least for North American railways.

[clasher]

This seems like it's shaping up to be a bit of a boondoggle.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I think the number of bus bays is based on GRT route plans. Not that many routes will actually connect to the LRT at this station.

From what I understand looking at the GRT system map, there are seven buses that connect to the LRT at this intersection (1, 6, 7, 8, 20, 34 & 204). We can also assume that GO will have one bus bay, and another for private operators like FLIX.

I guess GRT buses can still dump their passengers on the adjacent streets. But if this is supposed to be a "good" transit terminal, these routes should have reserved spaces inside the new bus loop. If we mix in some more bus-priority traffic lights, we can offer a very good service for a very small investment.

[taylortbb]

I think the number of bus bays is based on GRT route plans. Not that many routes will actually connect to the LRT at this station.

From what I understand looking at the GRT system map, there are seven buses that connect to the LRT at this intersection (1, 6, 7, 8, 20, 34 & 204). We can also assume that GO will have one bus bay, and another for private operators like FLIX.

I guess GRT buses can still dump their passengers on the adjacent streets. But if this is supposed to be a "good" transit terminal, these routes should have reserved spaces inside the new bus loop. If we mix in some more bus-priority traffic lights, we can offer a very good service for a very small investment.

I believe the bus loop is intended only for inter-city buses. The GRT routes that go by the station are all through running, and detouring into the station would add a significant amount of time to the trip of anyone who's not transferring.

[KevinL]

Correct, GRT has never planned any routes to layover or enter this terminal, they all pass by on the street.

[the_conestoga_guy]

Correct, GRT has never planned any routes to layover or enter this terminal, they all pass by on the street.

It looks like I'm mistaken on this. I looked back at the project documents and I think I found the source of my confusion:

Background
The King Victoria Transit Hub (KVTH) site is planned to be a landmark development and train station connecting the Region to the Toronto-Waterloo Region Innovation Corridor. It will be a focal point for higher order transit service in Waterloo Region, connecting passengers seamlessly through the co-location of ION (LRT), GO Transit (rail and bus service), VIA rail service, intercity bus, passenger vehicles and GRT.

I guess I figured the "co-location of ION... and GRT" meant that this project included the GRT buses.

[danbrotherston]

This is correct, the bus loop is for inter city only. I sure wish we were planning on more than 4 inter city routes.

And GRT routes not using the bus loop makes sense but it’d be nicer if Victoria was less terrible and also closer to the ION station.

[ac3r]

And had better shelters. The stops at this intersection are pitiful...but I guess they're al like that.

[cherrypark]

This is correct, the bus loop is for inter city only. I sure wish we were planning on more than 4 inter city routes.

And GRT routes not using the bus loop makes sense but it’d be nicer if Victoria was less terrible and also closer to the ION station.

If I recall, Victoria Weber to King is getting some review and re-assessment done as part of the transit hub? Not getting hopes up, but could improve the bus loading area a bit on the roadside.

[SF22]

Out of an abundance of optimism, I emailed the property management company for the Kaufman Lofts, asking whether they had considered building a parking garage on their property and revamping the recouped space to develop new townhouses/commercial/office space along Victoria Street, particularly because the transit hub has no commercial areas built into the plan (and also because it's an utter waste of space considering it's directly across the street from KVTH). Response I received:

This is not something that can be address as this would cost the condo owners in Kaufman millions to do, not to mention the logistics to both condos. It is not something the boards are willing to look into at all.

So that's disappointing, for sure. I am curious if a third party will eventually approach them to purchase the parking lot space and develop it, with the clause that parking will be provided for the loft tenants.

[bravado]

That seems like surface parking is taxed too low to me…