ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit

[dunkalunk]

If an EMU is brought into the mix, would that open the possibility of running parallel tracks along the CP spur which could make use of the existing Freeport rail bridge and the existing Riverside rail bridge? And then if EMUs were in the mix, could we sneak in a service between Preston and Guelph running parallel to 124/24?

You'd think so, but CP is notably hostile to this sort of thing, and the CN trackage that used to exist is now Homer Watson Blvd.

[dunkalunk]

(Not that Homer Watson/Fountain would make a bad Stage 2 route)

[nms]

I don't know if the recent CP-KCS merger has any weight, but this bit is buried deep in the news release that formalized their recent merger that might have bearing for passenger service in Canada:

“The transaction is also expected to drive employment growth across the CPKC system, adding over 800 new union-represented operating positions in the United States,” the board continued. “Of additional importance, the merger will foster new National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) passenger rail opportunities, as Applicants have committed to support Amtrak’s existing plans for expanded service on the new railroad’s lines.”

(I realize that this statement is specifically referring to Amtrak, but one can always dream that maybe they would extend the same commitment to other passenger rail operations. Or it was just hogwash to support the merger)

[ac3r]

Cambridge NIMBYs are at it once again: The LRT is too expensive. Life will become unaffordable (as if it isn't the banks that are doing that to us). It'll add too much traffic...so we should add more buses - more vehicular traffic - instead of creating less. Instead of providing rapid transit to Preston, we should service low density industrial areas instead.

'Stop the LRT thru Preston' group thinks it's time to rewrite Cambridge history: https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news/becom...de874.html

Fine, you don't want it? Maybe it's time to leave the Region of Waterloo and become an independent city. We could then get rid of GRT bus services to Cambridge all together, saving tons of money. Police and fire, too. Snow removal, garbage and recycling services and so on. Plus with the billions of dollars we'd save by cancelling this project, we could build an east-west LRT route through Kitchener and Waterloo. Then they can see how high their taxes go when they have to manage all of this on their own affairs. I mean what does Cambridge even contribute to this region? They're the forgotten bastard child everyone just meme on because it's such a backwards, useless thorn in the side of RoW.

You know...I moved back to this region when the LRT was still under construction because I thought this would be a great opportunity for the region to fix itself and evolve and I wanted to be part of that. How mistaken I was. It's a very frustrating place to live, run by boomer politicians who are so out of touch it's like they're trapped in the 1950s. Maybe I ought to head back to Berlin...heh.

[westwardloo]

haha I tend to agree with you sentiment on Cambridge. Even if amalgamation were to happen I am not sure it would improve how disjointed Cambridge feels from the KW. They wouldn't even put there Rec Centre on given land 10 years ago, because they were afraid kitchener would use it. Personally I hate when ever I have to travel to cambridge. I think the LRT would have helped, but I don't see this happen at its current projected cost. Maybe they should abandon the Hespeler Rd redevelopment dream and just go down the existing rail corridor from preston to galt. This will shave easily 20mins off the travel time from Galt to Kitchener and probably save close to a billion. You would also get a stop by the hospital. The current route just seems like a way to spur development on Hespeler Rd to make up for years of bad planning, Which I get is the general idea behind the LRT in the first place. I don't know. I want phase 2 to happen, but I work in the industry and construction cost have doubled in 5 years.

[SF22]

I've always considered the real problem with Cambridge the fact that they are still essentially just 3 towns shoved together, who haven't become a cohesive whole yet. In KW, there is a downtown and an uptown along the same street, but each individual city only has ONE city centre. Cambridge has three. They are all trying to keep their own feel and vibe, are probably competing against each other for resources and foot traffic, and are spaced out far enough that connecting them in a logical way is not particularly feasible within the limitations of cost and disruption. Of course Hespeler residents aren't going to be particularly in favour of the LRT, it doesn't even stop anywhere near their Queen Street centre.

In a perfect world where I get to decide what kind of transit this region gets, Cambridge would get its own LRT loop that hits all three city centres, and have a station where you can transfer to the KW LRT branch.

[bravado]

I want phase 2 to happen, but I work in the industry and construction cost have doubled in 5 years.

This particular fact isn’t Cambridge’s fault and it’s more than a bit frustrating to take the word of NIMBYs and their newspaper mouthpieces as the true voice of Cambridge. 

How many people in this forum have the resources to just move away and then be smug about it online? People actually live here and there’s no leadership whatsoever.

It’s really disheartening to keep having this conversation because it eventually leads to real enmity and creates new NIMBYs.

Edit: forgive my crankiness, it just seems like “we managed to twist the arms of everyone in KW to get this thing built, so you guys in Cambridge are on your own now that we got ours”

[ac3r]

I want phase 2 to happen, but I work in the industry and construction cost have doubled in 5 years.

This particular fact isn’t Cambridge’s fault and it’s more than a bit frustrating to take the word of NIMBYs and their newspaper mouthpieces as the true voice of Cambridge. 

How many people in this forum have the resources to just move away and then be smug about it online? People actually live here and there’s no leadership whatsoever.

It’s really disheartening to keep having this conversation because it eventually leads to real enmity and creates new NIMBYs.

Edit: forgive my crankiness, it just seems like “we managed to twist the arms of everyone in KW to get this thing built, so you guys in Cambridge are on your own now that we got ours”

But that's the issue. We're offering to hand them a solution to improve the city through a 4+ billion dollar rapid transit system that would kickstart a development and infrastructure boom that would create thousands of new homes, jobs and boost their economy to an extent never seen before in their entire history.  But their response to this proposal is: muh tax dollars! New neighbours!?! No! New jobs! Not in my backyard.

So if they want to have this regressive attitude, then who really cares about them? Now of course it isn't every citizen of that city, but it's evidently the majority otherwise there'd be more pro-LRT voices and politicians seeking to get this thing built as soon as possible. But instead that's not what we are seeing. So maybe all they deserve is a few extra buses, stroads, traffic and unsafe streets. Yes most of them probably can't afford to move, but their rhetoric implies that they're content with the way things are in their lives in Cambridge and don't want to leave or see improvements.

That 4+ billion could build a second - possibly even third - LRT line in Kitchener and Waterloo.

Now of course I think they do deserve it and believe most of these people - naturally - have no idea what the positive implications of this area for the city, but we're handing them something amazing on a silver platter and most don't want it.

[Joedelay Highhoe]

I work in Cambridge, and I honestly don't think anyone who lives here wants more homes or jobs, and they definitely don't want new neighbors. Best they can do is a McMansion infill project next to dilapidated old mid-century bungalows. It's a miserable bunch of sheltered closed-minded and hateful conservatives.

[ac3r]

It's always odd to see how working class conservatives spit on the idea of projects and policies that benefit them. It's this particular class (I don't wish to use that word as I am not classist, but it relates to the education of many working class...or lack there of) that thinks policies that benefit them are bad. You hear the rhetoric of this group towards Liberal, NDP or Green policies: Trudeau just wants to tax us, we're already poor enough! They don't have the knowledge or seemingly ability to look outside their personal bubble to see that yes, higher taxes aren't always nice to see, but they do benefit them. The Finnish, for example, are highly taxed but it's those taxes that provide benefits for everyone, whether it's better transit or better health care which means they don't need to pay out of pocket for things like paying for a car or medications (I have no idea if they get free meds, but yeah).

It's closed mindedness and failing to see the bigger picture...but when the time comes to complain about things, they'll start screaming for change (but then when presented with solutions they don't want them).

And back to the conservatism: the working class conservatives usually get conned by the wealthy conservatives. It's how Trump got in in the USA. A scummy, wealthy, failed businessman tricked tens of millions of average Americans into thinking he was on their side when in reality he disdains them all. They're just easy votes to capture.

[neonjoe]

It's always odd to see how working class conservatives spit on the idea of projects and policies that benefit them. It's this particular class (I don't wish to use that word as I am not classist, but it relates to the education of many working class...or lack there of) that thinks policies that benefit them are bad. You hear the rhetoric of this group towards Liberal, NDP or Green policies: Trudeau just wants to tax us, we're already poor enough! They don't have the knowledge or seemingly ability to look outside their personal bubble to see that yes, higher taxes aren't always nice to see, but they do benefit them. The Finnish, for example, are highly taxed but it's those taxes that provide benefits for everyone, whether it's better transit or better health care which means they don't need to pay out of pocket for things.

It's closed mindedness and failing to see the bigger picture...but when the time comes to complain about things, they'll start screaming for change (but then when presented with solutions they don't want them).

And back to the conservatism: the working class conservatives usually get conned by the wealthy conservatives. It's how Trump got in in the USA. A scummy, wealthy, failed businessman tricked tens of millions of average Americans into thinking he was on their side when in reality he disdains them all. They're just easy votes to capture.

I think their general rationalization is that 'I worked hard for what I have, you should too' They don't care if it benefits them, its everyperson for themselves. This kind of relates to the concept of the 'American Dream'

[ac3r]

Exactly. Or a more vulgar phrase: fuck you, I got mine. It's a funny sentiment to have because since the oil crisis in the 1970s, most people are barely keeping their head above the water. Like yeah you work hard and "got yours" but you're still living pay cheque to pay cheque. You could take the most hardcore average conservative from Canada, move them to a multitude of European countries and they'd salivate at how damn good they have it elsewhere, from nearly free university to a single person having more paid time off work to enjoy than 40 Canadians combined have.

But that's communism or something to these Neanderthals.

[Bytor]

Pam Wolf must be an idiot, asking about a rapid bus. What does she think route 302 is?

[ac3r]

So...I'm just thinking up how much of a waste of money this may all be. I mean everything: the Kitchener-Waterloo line and the Cambridge line. Obviously we could not have predicted the pandemic which threw the world economy into chaos, but that doesn't matter now since it happened and construction costs have gone up. But anyway, I got thinking about Toronto.

Our first LRT line cost just under 1 billion dollars. Take that and add it to the 4.5 billion for the Cambridge line. That's 5.5 billion. There'd obviously be overruns on the final cost, however, but I doubt it'd exceed 6 billion though who knows with the people we have running things...

We probably could have built an entire damn full fledged metro system for that price. To save money it could have even been something like a premetro system that could have utilized underground and surface level tracks, but using the same old LRT rolling stock we have now as we do not require full fledged heavy rail subway/metro cars.

I mean look at recent TTC projects for comparison. The Line 1 Yonge-Unversity subway was extended to add 6 stations, with construction concluding in 2017. That was in a heavily dense section of the city, requiring very deep tunnels and immense amount of engineering and construction. In total it cost only 3.2 billion dollars. The entire Line 4 Sheppard subway - 5 stations - was built for less than 1 billion! Less than 1 billion dollars for a subway that even used tunnel boring machines, the first time in Canadian history, no less. So Toronto/TTC managed to extend one of Canada's busiest and oldest subway lines and construct a new one for less money that what an LRT line to Cambridge will cost us. Apparently it's cheaper to build underground subway tunnels in Canada's biggest and most expensive city than it is to build a couple concrete and steel bridges (which is extremely damn easy to do) here in Waterloo Region. What gives?

Now let's imagine we fast forward to 2040 by the time the Cambridge line opens. We'll have spent no less than about 6 billion dollars. And what will we have to show for it by then? A crappy, slow LRT that only has enough capacity to run 2 coupled LRVs maximum and headways (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) no better than something like 4.5 minutes. We'll have outgrown it by then, since by 2040 we're statistically projected to have 1 million people living here. Can you imagine if Toronto spent 5 to 6 billion dollars on a rapid transit system that wasn't even underground or at least fully grade separated in some way, could only run 2 pieces of rolling stock together, had a headway of 5ish minutes at best and crawled along its city streets, getting stuck at red lights? The public would be livid.

I want an LRT to Cambridge. I think the opinions of the citizens there are not seeing the value in it, though many do and kudos to them. I want to see it evolve the city and connect it to the rest of the region. But for 4.5 billon dollars...I don't know. I think we're basically getting ripped off by a million different contracted companies with these construction estimates. Maybe construction costs will come down at some point, but I don't think it'll be for many years as we figure out a post-pandemic world. Maybe we just need to wait a while, but who knows. The leadership here is some of the absolute worst I've experienced in my life and I've lived in many different cities/countries and have been able to enjoy the bureaucracy elsewhere. But here...the way both so many citizens and politicians think here makes it feel like I'm in some hillbilly town rather than one of the G7's most prosperous nations in one of its most rapidly growing and important cities.

[bravado]

I don't think anyone in this process has any incentive to keep costs down, so there's no option that is cheaper. Even if they somehow came up with bus lanes, it would still somehow cost $1B.

If we can't build this for a normal amount of money, then that means we can't build anything - and it seems like nobody in power gives a fuck. If a contractor says they need $x, then there's no questioning. Why do we even have local engineers if they just read their manual and turn their brains off?

If a 19km light rail comes out to $4.5B, then that means the next lane widening of the 401 is going to also be a 10 digit sum, and the next new school build, and the next hospital after that, and sooner or later a new suburban road is a $20M project.

Light rail existed 100 years ago and we can't do it anymore now! That's real and physical decline and nobody cares!