King-Victoria Transit Hub

[Spokes]

Which begs the question, why does it cost SO MUCH? I get things aren't cheap, but this one seems increadibly pricy for what it is. Or maybe I'm not fully understanding the scope of something like this.

[Votemac]

What's the status/next steps on this? They seem to be a decade behind schedule.

A The Record article (linked on page 71) speculated that they hope to begin by autumn but we're basically there already. That article had more to do with evicting the homeless and had no details other than stating it'll all depend on Metrolinx's schedule on the Kitchener line improvements...and we all know they're about as fast and reliable as their train improvements.

I truly don't think we'll have a working train station for at least a decade and I think that's being optimistic in a best case scenario. I can see it being finished and open by 2032 if we're lucky - probably even 2035. There's little reason to rush the project if the train services between Waterloo Region (or London, but that's still just a pilot project I believe) and Toronto are still garbage. It would just become a very glorified bus station for the homeless to wreck until we have all day GO service because it wouldn't really serve any significant purpose. Even as a bus station it would be pretty minor since GRT no longer operates on a wheel and spoke model and intercity buses are awful. In fact it's a pretty awful place to stage intercity buses now because unlike in the GTA where you've got major highways downtown, the 401 is all the way in Cambridge.

"...It would just become a very glorified bus station for the homeless to wreck ..."

While you make good points, you really need to cool it with this.

[danbrotherston]

Which begs the question, why does it cost SO MUCH?  I get things aren't cheap, but this one seems increadibly pricy for what it is.  Or maybe I'm not fully understanding the scope of something like this.

This is a question I have not been able to get an adequate answer to beyond "industrial is expensive" (because a residential tower isn't?), I don't know what is driving the cost here, but if I was on council, I'd be moving to retool here. I know they're feeling the sunk cost fallacy, but I'm upset with this investment. And you folks KNOW I have no objection to spending on transit.

[bravado]

Could it be one of those bullshit projects where 2 km of bike lanes also somehow includes the cost to replace 10km of sewers and utilities?

[danbrotherston]

Could it be one of those bullshit projects where 2 km of bike lanes also somehow includes the cost to replace 10km of sewers and utilities?

I mean, it's not impossible, but it wasn't my impression that was the case.

[ac3r]

"...It would just become a very glorified bus station for the homeless to wreck ..."

While you make good points, you really need to cool it with this.

With what? The Charles Street bus terminal was a complete dump and that was back in the early 2000s mostly due to homeless, drug addicts, drug dealers and other people who have anti-social behaviours always being there. Now we've got hundreds of homeless people and drug addicts all over the downtown that dwarfs any period in our local history. If you don't think they'd be taking advantage of a public space (which should be their right) yet causing not only damage but safety issues to the general public I don't know what to tell you. You can't deny that if suddenly this train station materialized tomorrow (with or without all day GO service), it would be crawling with destitute people causing problems.

I was recently in Frankfurt to teach a lecture. There's an area there that called Bahnhofsviertel (train station quarter). It has long been their red light district, so the area has always been a bit wild (in the best way, IMO, as it's really interesting). But the authorities in Frankfurt recently tried to push as much of the homeless, drug addicts, sex workers, criminals etc into this area - exactly how the Region of Waterloo let them settle around where ours are now. It's easier to police and handle and then they can say "well we're trying". Anyways, over the last few months to a year the entire area has turned into an absolute madhouse as a result of this. Public and private spaces have been ruined due to the chaotic behaviour there. Here's a good article if you're curious: https://www-hessenschau-de.translate.goo...r_pto=wapp

As danbrotherston pointed out, the entire thing isn't even that necessary for our region. This isn't going to be something like Union Station where you've got subways, commuter and long distance trains, intercity and regular city buses, taxis, offices, shops, service/maintenance things and so on that will keep it busy and justify its existence...at least not at this point in our history. Unlike Union Station, our LRT stops on King Street so there wouldn't even be much connecting traffic with that. VIA and GO trains (even with all day service) are only going to stop there every...hour? I can't remember, but it's not like it'd see consistent train traffic. The handful of buses that stop around Central Station as well also don't attract all that many people at any given time either. So I think the entire project risks becoming an excessive waste of money that will get minor practical use but also see a lot of abuse from people, in particular those who don't have much of a reason to care about it. Even Ottawa, which is a city a lot larger than ours, has a train station that is pretty barren most of the time. If they had a homeless encampment next to it, you know for a fact they'd be in there making a mess of things.

I'm not disparaging the homeless or anything. The issue isn't them or those on drugs - I've got no problem with that, it's the sad reality of the world - it's the inaction of our governments to do anything to lift such people out of those situation as well as the fact that this is an extremely expensive vanity project. Yeah I'd love to see a nice modern, clean train/transit hub in this region but we're not anywhere near the point where we really need it (especially at this price tag) and it'll definitely see a ton of abuse so long as we both a) sanction these informal homeless encampments, and b) don't do anything to actually help these people.

[plam]

Have we seen the discussion about Finland and housing first and how they supposedly have way fewer homeless? Also before the lockdowns Wellington NZ housed the homeless, but they're back now.

Ottawa train station? But it's in the middle of nowhere.

If we had a lot of intercity buses this transit hub might be more necessary. With the LRT maybe not so much.

[ac3r]

They're doing some drilling samples on the property today. Maybe they'll actually be starting construction soon.

[kalis0490]

"As danbrotherston pointed out, the entire thing isn't even that necessary for our region."


As someone who regularly uses the go train, I can say this is false, Have you seen the station at 7am? literally 100s of people swarmed on the station, with not enough seating. Post pandemic rush is much greater than prepandemic rush . Even non-peak trains are full  (see below)

https://twitter.com/not_taylorx/status/1...27872769#m 


"the train station is great for suburban drivers who want to commute to downtown Toronto."

I guess it is that way now as it is the only train station in the region. However the Breslau train station is being constructed for those people, not the Kitchener central Station (the only reason why surface parking is being included is because the region could not find a partner for TOD). However I would say that students are probably a much larger demographic already than suburbanites and if the number of departures improve, I can't see why more students would not use the train over the crowded buses.


"I truly don't think we'll have a working train station for at least a decade and I think that's being optimistic in a best case scenario. I can see it being finished and open by 2032 if we're lucky - probably even 2035"

Keep in mind this project has two phases, 1  - the platforms and bus amenities ( done by Metrolinx) and  2 - actual train station.  1 is necessary and will be done anyways by Metrolinx ASAP using the existing funds. 2 is the part the could be called a "white elephant". I think the delay on part 2 could indicate that the region possibilities want to switch to older (2014 era) designs? (as being speculated on other sites)

The reason Breslau station isn't being build yet is that GO switched from paying for suburban stations to a model where developers pay for the stations. This was good for the new inner stations in Toronto but bad elsewhere. Thomasfield balked at paying the price ( they assumed they would get a free station) so  GO has been looking for other partners. However as Confederation GO shows, they are likely to pay for the station anyways.


PS 

Kitchener would see 30 minutes service during the peak hour to Toronto and hourly service off peak, which means we could see roughly 25 departures per direction/day. For 30 minutes off peak service one would need to build the Georgetown grade separation for the Halton Sub.

[danbrotherston]

"As danbrotherston pointed out, the entire thing isn't even that necessary for our region."


As someone who regularly uses the go train, I can say this is false, Have you seen the station at 7am? literally 100s of people swarmed on the station, with not enough seating. Post pandemic rush is much greater than prepandemic rush . Even non-peak trains are full  (see below)

I think Kitchener SHOULD have a great train station, but I'd rather they have a basic but properly located and service train station today than waiting a decade for this white elephant of a station to get funded which seems to have almost no amenities.

FWIW the city I live in now has 3 stations. The Centraal station is a huge affair with many platforms, a huge building tons of retail, etc. etc., obviously nothing like KW. But the other stations in the periphery ARE similar, carrying a similar number of passengers as we might optimistically expect in KW (while seeing many more trains admittedly).

They are nothing more than a small plaza, bike parking, platforms, stairs and elevators. They're great, and function just fine for passengers here. KW should have a better grander central station, but the passengers deserve a functional station today, not the nonsense that is the former Via station. Waiting a decade to build a grand station does a disservice to everyone now.

And that's before I object to the ridiculous cost of the proposed station.

https://twitter.com/not_taylorx/status/1...27872769#m 


"the train station is great for suburban drivers who want to commute to downtown Toronto."

I guess it is that way now as it is the only train station in the region. However the Breslau train station is being constructed for those people, not the Kitchener central Station (the only reason why surface parking is being included is because the region could not find a partner for TOD). However I would say that students are probably a much larger demographic already than suburbanites and if the number of departures improve, I can't see why more students would not use the train over the crowded buses.

This I agree with, there's pretty limited parking at the station, few people are going to be able to drive to it. FWIW...I don't much like the plans for the Breslau station either...we have wasted enough money building free parking for drivers, but seems like Metrolinx isn't going to stop doing so any time soon, despite what they claim.

"I truly don't think we'll have a working train station for at least a decade and I think that's being optimistic in a best case scenario. I can see it being finished and open by 2032 if we're lucky - probably even 2035"

Keep in mind this project has two phases, 1  - the platforms and bus amenities ( done by Metrolinx) and  2 - actual train station.  1 is necessary and will be done anyways by Metrolinx ASAP using the existing funds. 2 is the part the could be called a "white elephant". I think the delay on part 2 could indicate that the region possibilities want to switch to older (2014 era) designs? (as being speculated on other sites)

The reason Breslau station isn't being build yet is that GO switched from paying for suburban stations to a model where developers pay for the stations. This was good for the new inner stations in Toronto but bad elsewhere. Thomasfield balked at paying the price ( they assumed they would get a free station) so  GO has been looking for other partners. However as Confederation GO shows, they are likely to pay for the station anyways.

I'm not really sure of the project structure...if it is set to be done in Phases, then Phase 1 should start, that should be the basic station that gets constructed ASAP, while the complete station can get built if and when we have the money...or like...a more sensible plan.

If Metrolinx cannot find partners, they should do the development themselves. The public should be the one benefitting from these developments.

PS 

Kitchener would see 30 minutes service during the peak hour to Toronto and hourly service off peak, which means we could see roughly 25 departures per direction/day. For 30 minutes off peak service one would need to build the Georgetown grade separation for the Halton Sub.

[nms]

Didn't Greyhound use the a big bus-shaped tent in Sportsworld for a while? If a temporary building is okay for the Regional airport, surely something similar is worthwhile here too. Maybe they still have that big dome that was used for the bridge construction?

[dunkalunk]

Out of the loop, when do we get our train station? Do we need to vote conservative?

[timio]

Out of the loop, when do we get our train station? Do we need to vote conservative?

That would only work if it was in the middle of the green belt.

[ijmorlan]

Out of the loop, when do we get our train station? Do we need to vote conservative?

That would only work if it was in the middle of the green belt.

And it wouldn’t be worth it even if that were the only way to get it.

[timio]

That would only work if it was in the middle of the green belt.

And it wouldn’t be worth it even if that were the only way to get it.

Unless you're a developer friend of Dumpster Fire.