General Road and Highway Discussion

[panamaniac]

I do think you can turn left onto King from Ontario St.

Otherwise, another (slight detour) option is to go down Madison, Charles, left onto Cameron and then left onto King. Or, Benton to Duke, Duke to Francis and then right onto King.

That's how I'd do it.

[ijmorlan]

I think it’s a good candidate to be closed to motor vehicle traffic entirely. I don’t think it’s actually a great woonerf candidate; it’s only useful at all as a through route, not to access driveways on Gaukel itself. I view woonerfs as a way of providing needed vehicular access to an area which would be closed entirely except for some low-traffic needs.

What? Gaukel has parking spaces that are only accessible from Gaukel, so it is definitely "useful" for that. The point of woonerfing it would be to allow that while discouraging or prohibiting through traffic.

OK, yes, actually you’re right. I was thinking of the woonerf as necessarily implying that it would be open at both ends, whereas I have myself already in effect proposed a woonerf by suggesting that access to those parking lots would be permitted by driving on Gaukel from Hall’s Lane.

But I don’t think through traffic should be permitted, nor traffic between Charles St. and Hall’s Lane; and as properties are redeveloped, the parking access should be changed to be directly off Hall’s Lane. The woonerf aspect should be considered a transitional situation.

[dtkvictim]

Correct, only straight through is prohibited. Although I don't understand why, if 2 way traffic is being maintained opposite the intersection (not sure if that's the case or not).

Is straight through actually prohibited? I noticed the road paint shows only left and right turns, but my understanding is that's not legally binding. There would need to be a no straight through sign up, which I haven't seen (though also haven't looked closely). I was assuming it was just a paint error.

That's a good question. The construction drawings confirm the left/right turn road markings, but don't show a sign prohibiting straight through as far as I can see. No shortage of other sign pollution though. I guess prohibiting straight through could be used to solve the priority issue for a car and bike both going straight, but honestly it's just poor design and wouldn't be an issue if we would just use separated signals or built the original proposal.

Regardless, left turn is definitely allowed, so one more option for GtwoK.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I do think you can turn left onto King from Ontario St.

Otherwise, another (slight detour) option is to go down Madison, Charles, left onto Cameron and then left onto King. Or, Benton to Duke, Duke to Francis and then right onto King.

This might work for now, but it's possible that the "Duke St Cycling Improvements" will remove through-traffic along Duke. Though, the Region has been pretty quiet about this project lately, so this might not be implemented until after Francis is reopened...

[cherrypark]

I do think you can turn left onto King from Ontario St.

Otherwise, another (slight detour) option is to go down Madison, Charles, left onto Cameron and then left onto King. Or, Benton to Duke, Duke to Francis and then right onto King.

This might work for now, but it's possible that the "Duke St Cycling Improvements" will remove through-traffic along Duke. Though, the Region has been pretty quiet about this project lately, so this might not be implemented until after Francis is reopened...

Would hope if nothing else they could at least do the section Victoria to Water with the separated lanes. With Duke set to close with the new station construction (whenever that rolls around) it will be the most useful part of connecting Mt. Hope area to downtown. It is a lacking connection with the Weber "MUT" as the only dedicated way over right now.

[GtwoK]

IIRC, those parking spaces (some for the PUC building, and like, 2 for Pizza Pizza) also border on Halls Lane. So while they're currently accessed from Gaukel, I feel like feasibly the access could be moved to instead by from Halls Lane, no?

[danbrotherston]

IIRC, those parking spaces (some for the PUC building, and like, 2 for Pizza Pizza) also border on Halls Lane. So while they're currently accessed from Gaukel, I feel like feasibly the access could be moved to instead by from Halls Lane, no?

Yes, but the bigger problem is the new condo building garage exits onto Halls Ln. It's one way only meaning there's a fair bit of traffic going through Halls Ln. 

FWIW...my opinion is that Halls Ln could be made two way....

Sadly my opinion counts for very little.

[taylortbb]

FWIW...my opinion is that Halls Ln could be made two way....

It effectively already is between Water and Gaukel. Charlie West construction blocked Halls Lane at the Gaukel end for years, so the city installed a stop sign at the Water St end, clearly expecting people to be going that way. There is still one one-way sign, near Gaukel, but there's no no-entry sign from Gaukel, and 90% of people exiting the Charlie West garage head towards Water (as the connection to Gaukel was only just re-opened).

[dtkvictim]

IIRC, those parking spaces (some for the PUC building, and like, 2 for Pizza Pizza) also border on Halls Lane. So while they're currently accessed from Gaukel, I feel like feasibly the access could be moved to instead by from Halls Lane, no?

There are ~3 directly behind Pizza Pizza that are not directly connected to Halls Lane. They are separated from the lane by more parking which is directly off the lane. The owners of the PUC building don't want to lose any parking, and won't be paying for any such reconfiguration, so I don't know what powers and options the city has there. That parking lot does at least seem possible though, if an agreement can be made.

FWIW...my opinion is that Halls Ln could be made two way....

It effectively already is between Water and Gaukel. Charlie West construction blocked Halls Lane at the Gaukel end for years, so the city installed a stop sign at the Water St end, clearly expecting people to be going that way. There is still one one-way sign, near Gaukel, but there's no no-entry sign from Gaukel, and 90% of people exiting the Charlie West garage head towards Water (as the connection to Gaukel was only just re-opened).

The Halls Lane signage has changed on both blocks next to Gaukel St so much over the last few years that I'm not sure what is correct anymore. Regardless of signage, it is effectively two way because that's how people choose to drive on it.

FWIW, that Water St entrance to Halls Lane now has a 2 way sign, so I'm not sure at what point it becomes a one way. Probably at the Charlie West garage?

Most of Halls Lane is not wide enough to actually support two directions at a time though, and unlike a thin country road, there is no option to pull off the road to let oncoming traffic pass.

And lastly, don't forget that Halls Lane is still actively used for loading/deliveries, meaning the entire lane is blocked for 10+ minutes many times a day.

[danbrotherston]

IIRC, those parking spaces (some for the PUC building, and like, 2 for Pizza Pizza) also border on Halls Lane. So while they're currently accessed from Gaukel, I feel like feasibly the access could be moved to instead by from Halls Lane, no?

There are ~3 directly behind Pizza Pizza that are not directly connected to Halls Lane. They are separated from the lane by more parking which is directly off the lane. The owners of the PUC building don't want to lose any parking, and won't be paying for any such reconfiguration, so I don't know what powers and options the city has there. That parking lot does at least seem possible though, if an agreement can be made.

It effectively already is between Water and Gaukel. Charlie West construction blocked Halls Lane at the Gaukel end for years, so the city installed a stop sign at the Water St end, clearly expecting people to be going that way. There is still one one-way sign, near Gaukel, but there's no no-entry sign from Gaukel, and 90% of people exiting the Charlie West garage head towards Water (as the connection to Gaukel was only just re-opened).

The Halls Lane signage has changed on both blocks next to Gaukel St so much over the last few years that I'm not sure what is correct anymore. Regardless of signage, it is effectively two way because that's how people choose to drive on it.

FWIW, that Water St entrance to Halls Lane now has a 2 way sign, so I'm not sure at what point it becomes a one way. Probably at the Charlie West garage?

Most of Halls Lane is not wide enough to actually support two directions at a time though, and unlike a thin country road, there is no option to pull off the road to let oncoming traffic pass.

And lastly, don't forget that Halls Lane is still actively used for loading/deliveries, meaning the entire lane is blocked for 10+ minutes many times a day.

Halls Lane does have a few pinch points that would make overtaking difficult, that being said, it absolutely does have lots of places to pull over for oncoming traffic to pass.

It is not the case that someone needs to be able to pull over everywhere, that is certainly not the case here (*most* residential two way streets cannot accommodate two way traffic along them, and drivers must pull aside into empty parking spaces or onto the sidewalk to pass each other). I do realise in North America because of our different context, there's a much higher chance of getting two drivers who both refuse to pull in, who then come face to face and throw a tantrum about it. Of course, since this is Canada, not the US, it's less likely to devolve into a shootout at the ok coral.

That being said, the whole thing is moot, I don't think our engineers would actually do it, no matter how reasonable it may seem to me sitting here.

[tomh009]

And lastly, don't forget that Halls Lane is still actively used for loading/deliveries, meaning the entire lane is blocked for 10+ minutes many times a day.

Is it really needed for that many deliveries? Charlie West has a parking garage, Union Burger has a parking lot, Coffee Time has (access to) a parking garage and Kinkaku has a parking lot. I think the lane could be made a no-stopping zone. Or am I missing something about deliveries?

[dtkvictim]

And lastly, don't forget that Halls Lane is still actively used for loading/deliveries, meaning the entire lane is blocked for 10+ minutes many times a day.

Is it really needed for that many deliveries? Charlie West has a parking garage, Union Burger has a parking lot, Coffee Time has (access to) a parking garage and Kinkaku has a parking lot. I think the lane could be made a no-stopping zone. Or am I missing something about deliveries?

I was thinking mostly of the block between Gaukel St and Ontario St, as it's generally much tighter. Interestingly, the segment between city Lot 9 and Gaukel St was actually previously 2 way (pictured below). It is now a one way in the direction of Ontario St. Most of the laneway parking is closer to Gaukel St, so when places like Bobby O'Briens or Yo's Sushi are getting deliveries, the only option to exit is through Gaukel St.

[dtkvictim]

It is not the case that someone needs to be able to pull over everywhere, that is certainly not the case here (*most* residential two way streets cannot accommodate two way traffic along them, and drivers must pull aside into empty parking spaces or onto the sidewalk to pass each other).

I couldn't find any comparable situations jumping around on street view. Nearly all narrow streets I found in Utrecht were one way, while every two way road I found was wider, had edge lanes, parallel parking spaces, was a dead end, or had a mountable median or sidewalk.

The tight parts of Halls Lane does have stall parking, but I don't think the majority of our drivers could even pull into one of them.

The choke points of Halls Lane are pretty short in distance anyways, and the current free-for-all of it works well enough, so whatever. I just think it might fall apart if significantly more traffic is added to it.

I do realise in North America because of our different context, there's a much higher chance of getting two drivers who both refuse to pull in, who then come face to face and throw a tantrum about it.

Ironically, I think making it one way might actually make this less of an issue. People will still ignore it, but from my experience those driving the wrong way know they are in the wrong and yield/reverse out of the way.

Side note: I was surprised at the amount of (presumably) illegal parking I came across on Netherlands streetview, on grass medians, etc. I didn't expect that level of vehicular entitlement there, but I guess my perception was wrong? I'm used to the entitlement here though, as apparently my own parking space in Halls Lane with a No Parking sign is a community parking space just because it's usually empty. Every single event (BLM protests, Ribfest, Bluesfest, etc), I can guarantee someone had taken it. Or the construction company who had the gall to park their machinery there over night, including blocking my neighbour's garage, and then put up cones with warning tape (bonus: bylaw wouldn't do anything because the construction vehicle didn't have a license plate).

[plam]

It is not the case that someone needs to be able to pull over everywhere, that is certainly not the case here (*most* residential two way streets cannot accommodate two way traffic along them, and drivers must pull aside into empty parking spaces or onto the sidewalk to pass each other).

I couldn't find any comparable situations jumping around on street view. Nearly all narrow streets I found in Utrecht were one way, while every two way road I found was wider, had edge lanes, parallel parking spaces, was a dead end, or had a mountable median or sidewalk.

New Zealand has a lot of one-lane bridges on highways. They're kind of stressful. There is one direction that has priority, so if you're in the non-priority direction, you're supposed to wait for any cars from the priority direction to pass before you proceed. Not the same as streets, because you're moving faster, but most of the time there's no one.

Side note: I was surprised at the amount of (presumably) illegal parking I came across on Netherlands streetview, on grass medians, etc. I didn't expect that level of vehicular entitlement there, but I guess my perception was wrong? I'm used to the entitlement here though, as apparently my own parking space in Halls Lane with a No Parking sign is a community parking space just because it's usually empty. Every single event (BLM protests, Ribfest, Bluesfest, etc), I can guarantee someone had taken it. Or the construction company who had the gall to park their machinery there over night, including blocking my neighbour's garage, and then put up cones with warning tape (bonus: bylaw wouldn't do anything because the construction vehicle didn't have a license plate).

It's probably everywhere and comes with the fact that you're driving a big vehicle around, really. But, pretty much not great about that construction vehicle! It should be towed away!

[danbrotherston]

It is not the case that someone needs to be able to pull over everywhere, that is certainly not the case here (*most* residential two way streets cannot accommodate two way traffic along them, and drivers must pull aside into empty parking spaces or onto the sidewalk to pass each other).

I couldn't find any comparable situations jumping around on street view. Nearly all narrow streets I found in Utrecht were one way, while every two way road I found was wider, had edge lanes, parallel parking spaces, was a dead end, or had a mountable median or sidewalk.

The tight parts of Halls Lane does have stall parking, but I don't think the majority of our drivers could even pull into one of them.

The choke points of Halls Lane are pretty short in distance anyways, and the current free-for-all of it works well enough, so whatever. I just think it might fall apart if significantly more traffic is added to it.

For example here: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1665243,...384!8i8192

The distance between the vehicles and the curb is about 4 meters, which is narrower than the narrowest section of Halls Ln and this is a two way road.

If there is two way traffic, usually vehicles must pull over, although sometimes...if both cars are very small, they'll just pass.

This is a fairly low traffic road, but it's not a tiny cul-de-sac or anything. I am not really sure how much traffic Charlie West will generate, but sans Charlie West, Halls Ln definitely carries less than this street.

I do realise in North America because of our different context, there's a much higher chance of getting two drivers who both refuse to pull in, who then come face to face and throw a tantrum about it.

Ironically, I think making it one way might actually make this less of an issue. People will still ignore it, but from my experience those driving the wrong way know they are in the wrong and yield/reverse out of the way.

Side note: I was surprised at the amount of (presumably) illegal parking I came across on Netherlands streetview, on grass medians, etc. I didn't expect that level of vehicular entitlement there, but I guess my perception was wrong? I'm used to the entitlement here though, as apparently my own parking space in Halls Lane with a No Parking sign is a community parking space just because it's usually empty. Every single event (BLM protests, Ribfest, Bluesfest, etc), I can guarantee someone had taken it. Or the construction company who had the gall to park their machinery there over night, including blocking my neighbour's garage, and then put up cones with warning tape (bonus: bylaw wouldn't do anything because the construction vehicle didn't have a license plate).

Yeah, lots of cars parked up the curb. I believe it's mostly legal parking. The Netherlands is great for biking, but definitely much less good for walking (although still far better than most of Canada). FWIW...drivers do block bike lanes and sidewalks, albeit less often than in Canada because well, frankly there's less need--and literally no other reason. But it's also less of an issue, because the roads are just generally safer.

Lol...yeah...I've probably told the story before but I had someone park in my space (that I fucking paid for) and our super told me to just park in visitor...and they ticketed me for it. I just paid it, but these days, I'd be far less polite about it. Frankly, if someone dumped an un-plated vehicle in on my property, I'd have the refuse removed from my property and sell it for scrap.