(01-18-2021, 12:27 PM)TravelWise Wrote: The Region and Cities are developing a new implementation plan for bike share, e-scooters/scooter share, etc. 

We thought it might make sense to bring the topics together here in this thread.

First post:

Where should people be allowed to ride e-scooters in Waterloo Region?

The Region of Waterloo and the Cities of Cambridge, Kitchener, and Waterloo want your input on where people should be allowed to ride an e-scooter in our community. Your responses will help inform staff reports to City and Regional Councils on if and where personally-owned e-scooters can be ridden in Waterloo Region, Staff will also consider requirements for e-scooter rental companies (scooter-share) that wish to operate locally. Visit the project page to learn more and provide your input.

https://www.engagewr.ca/e-scooters

(01-18-2021, 12:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 12:27 PM)TravelWise Wrote: The Region and Cities are developing a new implementation plan for bike share, e-scooters/scooter share, etc. 

We thought it might make sense to bring the topics together here in this thread.

First post:

Where should people be allowed to ride e-scooters in Waterloo Region?

The Region of Waterloo and the Cities of Cambridge, Kitchener, and Waterloo want your input on where people should be allowed to ride an e-scooter in our community. Your responses will help inform staff reports to City and Regional Councils on if and where personally-owned e-scooters can be ridden in Waterloo Region, Staff will also consider requirements for e-scooter rental companies (scooter-share) that wish to operate locally. Visit the project page to learn more and provide your input.

https://www.engagewr.ca/e-scooters

Thanks for posting the survey.

I am curious, do you have any insight into why region staff are recommending legislating these differently than bicycles. To me, this seems like an entirely pointless and bizarre decision.

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

Obviously I don't think e-scooters and bicycles should be in mixed traffic unless than observed speed limit is <30km/h, but for roads without infrastructure there isn't much you can do other than letting them ride on the sidewalk. The fact this survey treats e-scooters and bicycles any different from each other shows there isn't any logical consistency in the decision making.

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

(01-18-2021, 06:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

One difference between bicyclists in traffic and e-scooter riders in traffic is that there is a good chance that the latter will be far less experienced.

(01-18-2021, 06:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

One difference between bicyclists in traffic and e-scooter riders in traffic is that there is a good chance that the latter will be far less experienced.

(01-18-2021, 07:25 PM)plam Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 06:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote: One difference between bicyclists in traffic and e-scooter riders in traffic is that there is a good chance that the latter will be far less experienced.

Empirically yes. But it's also an admission of failure. We should be getting more people new-to-bicycling on the roads/good bicycle infrastructure.

(01-18-2021, 07:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 06:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote: One difference between bicyclists in traffic and e-scooter riders in traffic is that there is a good chance that the latter will be far less experienced.

Are we certain this is true this year? Many new people are buying bicycles. And many people who are experienced riding bikes may ride scooters.

And what is experience? How long to be "experienced"? I'd argue most people have plenty of experience to understand the mechanics of how riding on the road works (the rules are pretty well known), and the real need for experience is in comfort and confidence, and that varies by rider at least as much as it does by experience.

• Commuters will be typically relatively experienced
  
• e-scooters are rather expensive to use for regular commuting
  
• The e-scooter business model encourages ad-hoc trips (maybe little experience)
  
• Many bicyclists have many years of experience, having started as children
  

(01-18-2021, 08:29 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 07:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Are we certain this is true this year? Many new people are buying bicycles. And many people who are experienced riding bikes may ride scooters.

And what is experience? How long to be "experienced"? I'd argue most people have plenty of experience to understand the mechanics of how riding on the road works (the rules are pretty well known), and the real need for experience is in comfort and confidence, and that varies by rider at least as much as it does by experience.

I have no data. And I don't know where to find any.

But ...

• Commuters will be typically relatively experienced
  
• e-scooters are rather expensive to use for regular commuting
  
• The e-scooter business model encourages ad-hoc trips (maybe little experience)
  
• Many bicyclists have many years of experience, having started as children
  

But, yes, it's only a hypothesis, I have no hard evidence.

Please note I am not defending any particular proposal, but I do tend to agree with their assumption for this particular aspect.

(01-18-2021, 04:26 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

Obviously I don't think e-scooters and bicycles should be in mixed traffic unless than observed speed limit is <30km/h, but for roads without infrastructure there isn't much you can do other than letting them ride on the sidewalk. The fact this survey treats e-scooters and bicycles any different from each other shows there isn't any logical consistency in the decision making.

This should be a rule for transportation engineers, not for cyclists.

In fact, most rules should be for transportation engineers, not transportation users.

(01-18-2021, 06:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 03:43 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: It's absurd to me that they would acknowledge the dangers of putting a scooter in mixed traffic, and the dangers of being forced to ride in the gutter, but think that it's completely acceptable to put bicycles in that situation. They also state that motorists might not know how to react to a scooter being on the road as though it would be any different than a bike.

One difference between bicyclists in traffic and e-scooter riders in traffic is that there is a good chance that the latter will be far less experienced.

(01-18-2021, 08:38 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(01-18-2021, 08:29 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I have no data. And I don't know where to find any.

But ...

• Commuters will be typically relatively experienced
  
• e-scooters are rather expensive to use for regular commuting
  
• The e-scooter business model encourages ad-hoc trips (maybe little experience)
  
• Many bicyclists have many years of experience, having started as children
  

But, yes, it's only a hypothesis, I have no hard evidence.

Please note I am not defending any particular proposal, but I do tend to agree with their assumption for this particular aspect.

e-scooters != shared e-scooter companies.

I have no idea of the current breakdown in miles from rentals vs. owned, or what a future breakdown would look like, but it's entirely possible to buy your own scooter.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your position, or the argument, but I find their arguments entirely uncompelling as justification.

Quote:Your response will inform staff reports to City and Regional Councils on if and where personally-owned e-scooters can be ridden in Waterloo Region. Based on the decision of the respective councils on where e-scooters can go, staff will also consider requirements for e-scooter rental companies (scooter-share) that wish to operate in our community.

Quote:Region of Waterloo council approved a committee plan Wednesday to allow e-scooters on regional roads with a speed limit of 50 kilometres per hour or less, and on roads with boulevard multi-use paths and reserved bike lanes.

A change has been made to the region's traffic and parking bylaw to allow e-scooters on regional roads as of July 1. The cities of Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge, along with the townships, will have to pass their own bylaws if they want to follow suit.