General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours

[CP42]

I recently moved into an apartment near the GO Transit layover yard between King and Park Streets and although it hasn’t bothered me too much, I’ve noticed that the trains parked there seem to idle all night from the time they arrive in the evening until the time they depart in the morning. 

Some articles on the issue of idling noise from when GO trains first came to the region in 2010 had quoted “GO Transit says the trains will only start up and run for 30 minutes to an hour” (https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/resi...y-1.578209). However, it appears they are idling for the entire time they are at the layover facility. 

I am a huge advocate for increased GO service from Kitchener to Toronto. However, I’m not sure why the trains need to idle all night? Unless there is a valid reason, this doesn’t seem like a good thing for both noise and pollution in the area. 

Any ideas why this might be the case? If there’s no valid reason, would there be any way to convince GO to only idle the trains 30-60 minutes prior to departure as previously stated in 2010 rather than for the entire ~10 hours at the layover facility?

Realizing this was probably better suited for either Urban Issues or GO Transit within the Transportation and Infrastructure section. Please change if necessary.

[ijmorlan]

I recently moved into an apartment near the GO Transit layover yard between King and Park Streets and although it hasn’t bothered me too much, I’ve noticed that the trains parked there seem to idle all night from the time they arrive in the evening until the time they depart in the morning. 

Some articles on the issue of idling noise from when GO trains first came to the region in 2010 had quoted “GO Transit says the trains will only start up and run for 30 minutes to an hour” (https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/resi...y-1.578209). However, it appears they are idling for the entire time they are at the layover facility. 

I am a huge advocate for increased GO service from Kitchener to Toronto. However, I’m not sure why the trains need to idle all night? Unless there is a valid reason, this doesn’t seem like a good thing for both noise and pollution in the area. 

Any ideas why this might be the case? If there’s no valid reason, would there be any way to convince GO to only idle the trains 30-60 minutes prior to departure as previously stated in 2010 rather than for the entire ~10 hours at the layover facility?

It’s unfortunate that Metrolinx is not trustworthy on neighbourhood impact matters. I agree that this seems very questionable. What could have changed that requires continuous idling? Also, there are 2 categories of possible reasons for idling: either the engine needs to keep running, or systems which depend on the power generated by the engine need to keep running. If the reason for the idling is the latter, then the trains should be equipped to plug in when in the layover facility rather than running what is in effect a generator for each one. The purpose of the diesel engine is to deal with the absence of electrical power, not because burning diesel is a plus.

I have a vague recollection that idling was one of the community concerns with GO partially re-activating the Don Branch in Toronto to serve as train storage (3 trains end-to-end if I recall correctly).

[ac3r]

I recently moved into an apartment near the GO Transit layover yard between King and Park Streets and although it hasn’t bothered me too much, I’ve noticed that the trains parked there seem to idle all night from the time they arrive in the evening until the time they depart in the morning. 

Some articles on the issue of idling noise from when GO trains first came to the region in 2010 had quoted “GO Transit says the trains will only start up and run for 30 minutes to an hour” (https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/resi...y-1.578209). However, it appears they are idling for the entire time they are at the layover facility. 

I am a huge advocate for increased GO service from Kitchener to Toronto. However, I’m not sure why the trains need to idle all night? Unless there is a valid reason, this doesn’t seem like a good thing for both noise and pollution in the area. 

Any ideas why this might be the case? If there’s no valid reason, would there be any way to convince GO to only idle the trains 30-60 minutes prior to departure as previously stated in 2010 rather than for the entire ~10 hours at the layover facility?

Train engineers dislike having to shut them off due to how long they take to get going again and that's especially true for diesel locomotives. Be it the air brake pressure, engine concerns (important with diesel engines), cooling systems etc. GO Transit may have said they'll ideally only start them up just before they're needed...but anyone who knows trains will tell you that's just a friendly lie to placate NIMBY neighbours. Unless there is a real good reason, locomotives are rarely turned off and that's especially true in colder months.

Edit: Fuel usage is also a very, very big reason. It can often take more fuel to cold start an engine up again than it would to just let it idle for 12 hours straight. Likewise, cold starting engines can often be more hazardous to the environment due to the amount of shit they spew out trying to get up and running. It's economically unfeasible (cost of fuel, engine maintenance, time wasted while it warms up/brake lines re-pressurize) to do this every single night just so people who willingly moved next to trains...don't have to hear trains.

[cherrypark]

The idling, as well as just the use of that yard at all, has been a regular complaint I've seen from Cherry Park residents near the line. As I recall, that layover facility was supposed to be disused after upgrades to a yard east of Highway 85 but I'm not sure what the reason is for that still being incomplete. Its possible their idling there is to do with keeping power, as others have said, and those facilities not having been added to provide power there could be for the fact they are supposed to be moving on from there?

[Bytor]

The idling, as well as just the use of that yard at all, has been a regular complaint I've seen from Cherry Park residents near the line. As I recall, that layover facility was supposed to be disused after upgrades to a yard east of Highway 85 but I'm not sure what the reason is for that still being incomplete. Its possible their idling there is to do with keeping power, as others have said, and those facilities not having been added to provide power there could be for the fact they are supposed to be moving on from there?

Just to make sure I understand, "idling all night long" has been a regular complaint? As in literally all all night long, and not for only an hour after the last train parks there in the evening at 11pm-ish. I just want to make sure that "all night" is not merely hyperbole for somebody hearing them at 12:01am 

The yard does have wayside power, which is supposed to be used instead of idling the diesel engines, 

I could totally see it being the 23:21 train from Toronto was idling until 00:21, and then the person heard the 5:14 train get started up a 4:14 when they got up to pee in the middle of the night, and the complainer is being hyperbolic due to being annoyed.

[danbrotherston]

The idling, as well as just the use of that yard at all, has been a regular complaint I've seen from Cherry Park residents near the line. As I recall, that layover facility was supposed to be disused after upgrades to a yard east of Highway 85 but I'm not sure what the reason is for that still being incomplete. Its possible their idling there is to do with keeping power, as others have said, and those facilities not having been added to provide power there could be for the fact they are supposed to be moving on from there?

Just to make sure I understand, "idling all night long" has been a regular complaint? As in literally all all night long, and not for only an hour after the last train parks there in the evening at 11pm-ish. I just want to make sure that "all night" is not merely hyperbole for somebody hearing them at 12:01am 

The yard does have wayside power, which is supposed to be used instead of idling the diesel engines, 

I could totally see it being the 23:21 train from Toronto was idling until 00:21, and then the person heard the 5:14 train get started up a 4:14 when they got up to pee in the middle of the night, and the complainer is being hyperbolic due to being annoyed.

The trains were not idling all night long at the Cherry St. layby. They might have been idling in the morning, but as a resident I walked past them almost every night and they were shut down and running of...well whatever the train equivalent of shore power is.

[CP42]

Just to make sure I understand, "idling all night long" has been a regular complaint? As in literally all all night long, and not for only an hour after the last train parks there in the evening at 11pm-ish. I just want to make sure that "all night" is not merely hyperbole for somebody hearing them at 12:01am 

The yard does have wayside power, which is supposed to be used instead of idling the diesel engines, 

I could totally see it being the 23:21 train from Toronto was idling until 00:21, and then the person heard the 5:14 train get started up a 4:14 when they got up to pee in the middle of the night, and the complainer is being hyperbolic due to being annoyed.

The trains were not idling all night long at the Cherry St. layby. They might have been idling in the morning, but as a resident I walked past them almost every night and they were shut down and running of...well whatever the train equivalent of shore power is.

I spoke to a friend who also mentioned they may be plugged in rather than idling but still create quite a bit of noise.

I guess if that’s the case, it’s just something to get used to!

[danbrotherston]

The trains were not idling all night long at the Cherry St. layby. They might have been idling in the morning, but as a resident I walked past them almost every night and they were shut down and running of...well whatever the train equivalent of shore power is.

I spoke to a friend who also mentioned they may be plugged in rather than idling but still create quite a bit of noise.

I guess if that’s the case, it’s just something to get used to!

My recollection was that they were basically silent. But obviously it's been a few years since I've walked past. The only thing I remember about them was they had a moderately bright very blue light on them and I always thought....huh..they must have bluetooth.

It's possible that they do not have shore power at the new layby...which really would be unacceptable.

[LesPio]

Items from today's Ontario Budget that mention "Kitchener"

Building Highways, Transit and Infrastructure Projects
We are building new highways, roads, schools, hospitals, long‐term care homes and transit.
From Uxbridge to Kitchener‐Waterloo, we are building and redeveloping hospitals, and from
Pickering to Ottawa to Atikokan to Windsor, we are building new schools.

Building the New Highway 7
The next phase of construction for the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph will provide
relief to the gridlocked Highway 401 and connect the fast‐growing urban centres of Kitchener,
Waterloo and Guelph. Design of the Frederick Street bridge replacement is well underway with
utility work targeted to begin in 2023.

Building GO Transit
Kitchener GO Rail Extension: Following its
contract award in May 2022, Metrolinx has
begun work on Guelph Central GO Station to
construct a second platform, a new storage track for maintenance vehicles and a passing track

Building Hospitals
As part of its plan to build a more connected and convenient health care system, the government is
implementing the most ambitious plan for hospital expansion in Ontario’s history, investing over
$48 billion over the next 10 years in hospital infrastructure, including over $32 billion in hospital
capital grants. This includes supporting more than 50 hospital projects that would add 3,000 new
beds over 10 years to increase access to reliable, quality care. Recent milestones include:
 Grand River Hospital and St. Mary’s General Hospital Joint Redevelopment Project:
The 2022 Budget announced the planning of the Grand River Hospital and St. Mary’s General
Hospital Joint Redevelopment Project to construct a new, joint acute care facility and expand
existing facilities in the Kitchener‐Waterloo region.

Implementation and construction of a multi-use trail to
connect residents from the Iron Horse Trail with the
future Transit hub in Kitchener and Waterloo.

[CP42]

I spoke to a friend who also mentioned they may be plugged in rather than idling but still create quite a bit of noise.

I guess if that’s the case, it’s just something to get used to!

My recollection was that they were basically silent. But obviously it's been a few years since I've walked past. The only thing I remember about them was they had a moderately bright very blue light on them and I always thought....huh..they must have bluetooth.

It's possible that they do not have shore power at the new layby...which really would be unacceptable.

This is the sound they make the entire time while parked:
https://imgur.com/a/UyNqEUD

[Rainrider22]

Send that to your counsellor. That is ridiculous...

[SF22]

Items from today's Ontario Budget that mention "Kitchener"

Building Highways, Transit and Infrastructure Projects
We are building new highways, roads, schools, hospitals, long‐term care homes and transit.
From Uxbridge to Kitchener‐Waterloo, we are building and redeveloping hospitals, and from
Pickering to Ottawa to Atikokan to Windsor, we are building new schools.

Building the New Highway 7
The next phase of construction for the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph will provide
relief to the gridlocked Highway 401 and connect the fast‐growing urban centres of Kitchener,
Waterloo and Guelph. Design of the Frederick Street bridge replacement is well underway with
utility work targeted to begin in 2023.

Building GO Transit
Kitchener GO Rail Extension: Following its
contract award in May 2022, Metrolinx has
begun work on Guelph Central GO Station to
construct a second platform, a new storage track for maintenance vehicles and a passing track

Building Hospitals
As part of its plan to build a more connected and convenient health care system, the government is
implementing the most ambitious plan for hospital expansion in Ontario’s history, investing over
$48 billion over the next 10 years in hospital infrastructure, including over $32 billion in hospital
capital grants. This includes supporting more than 50 hospital projects that would add 3,000 new
beds over 10 years to increase access to reliable, quality care. Recent milestones include:
 Grand River Hospital and St. Mary’s General Hospital Joint Redevelopment Project:
The 2022 Budget announced the planning of the Grand River Hospital and St. Mary’s General
Hospital Joint Redevelopment Project to construct a new, joint acute care facility and expand
existing facilities in the Kitchener‐Waterloo region.

Implementation and construction of a multi-use trail to
connect residents from the Iron Horse Trail with the
future Transit hub in Kitchener and Waterloo.

I wonder if the MUT connection to the Iron Horse Trail is just regarding the spot where it needs to cross the train tracks. I think the rest of the connection (from the hub to Joseph St, and then Stewart St through to the IHT) is complete or under construction. I know that the tracks are outside of the city's/region's purview.

Glad to see progress continues on the GO expansion, even if it is Slow As Heck.

I do wonder where a new hospital facility will be built. Seems like it should be somewhere along the LRT line for accessibility reasons; I hope they find a good space that isn't on the outskirts of town. The empty lot on Northfield across from the Northfield Station might be alright, or even on Wes Graham Way directly across from the R&T stop.

[Bytor]

Send that to your counsellor.  That is ridiculous...

That's the diesels idling, which they only do for an hour at most (or are only supposed to do) as they are being shut down for the night or warmed up in the morning. The yard, as I mentioned above, has wayside power, and with that they are virtually silent. I've walked past them on summer weekends.

Further to the hyperbole hypothesis I made earlier, AFAICT the 5:14am train gets parked at the Shirley yard, as does the 23:21. Also AFAICT, the last trains to park at the Park St yard do so between 19:00 and 20:00, and it seems the 5:58 train is the first one to leave the yard at Park St.

So one might potentially hear idling starting at roughly 5am, and again in the evening until roughly 9pm for the trains that get parked at Park St.

However, it is important to note that there might be other "behind the scenes" that Metrolinx will occasionally need to do, and that includes idling trains at Park St. until slots open up with everybody else who shares this track to be able to move things to park at the Shirley Yard or even other yards. This includes things like getting trains out to London even though they are not parked out there.

Also, please understand that what I am saying here is based on crowd-sourced, unofficial observations about which trains park or idle where, and may change at any time.

If people are complaining about a real thing, then they need to adequately document the times the trains are idling more than 1 hour and call/email Metrolinx.

[CP42]

Send that to your counsellor.  That is ridiculous...

That's the diesels idling, which they only do for an hour at most (or are only supposed to do) as they are being shut down for the night or warmed up in the morning. The yard, as I mentioned above, has wayside power, and with that they are virtually silent. I've walked past them on summer weekends.

Further to the hyperbole hypothesis I made earlier, AFAICT the 5:14am train gets parked at the Shirley yard, as does the 23:21. Also AFAICT, the last trains to park at the Park St yard do so between 19:00 and 20:00, and it seems the 5:58 train is the first one to leave the yard at Park St.

So one might potentially hear idling starting at roughly 5am, and again in the evening until roughly 9pm for the trains that get parked at Park St.

However, it is important to note that there might be other "behind the scenes" that Metrolinx will occasionally need to do, and that includes idling trains at Park St. until slots open up with everybody else who shares this track to be able to move things to park at the Shirley Yard or even other yards. This includes things like getting trains out to London even though they are not parked out there.

Also, please understand that what I am saying here is based on crowd-sourced, unofficial observations about which trains park or idle where, and may change at any time.

If people are complaining about a real thing, then they need to adequately document the times the trains are idling more than 1 hour and call/email Metrolinx.

Also took a video at around 8pm last night, but can assure you this was going until I fell asleep around 12-1am. I will further document as this may be needed to bring to my Councillor/Metrolinx. It’s not a hyperbole that they are actually making this idling sound all night until they leave in the morning. 

https://i.imgur.com/pNoWOfj.mp4

[ac3r]

Hopefully prior to signing on the dotted line for your condo you did in fact accept that living literally right beside a) one of the Canadian National mainlines b) a Metrolinx train yard c) a train station would indeed be a loud place to live.

Metrolinx may say they won't idle trains longer than they need but obviously that changes. As mentioned above, diesel locomotives are not an easy thing to cold start so they really don't like to shut them down, particularly in the winter months. It's just the nature of the technology and location, so it isn't that "ridiculous" as someone said. Annoying I'm sure, but probably something you'll have to get used to if you plan on living there long term.