236 Victoria St N | 40 & 35 fl | Proposed

[ZEBuilder]

I don't think we should read too much into council poking their noses into lease contracts. I'm sure they were flooded with emails asking them to save the climbing gym, and now they're just paying lip service to appear sympathetic.

One detail I did find interesting was that the gym is on a 5 year lease. I'm not incredibly familiar with how these sorts of real estate deals are handled, but 5 years seems super short. The gym would have projected their income against the up front costs of setting up the new space and would have realized that the payback period was fairly long (I'm assuming years). I wouldn't be surprised if they're only breaking even after this 5 year lease ends. And if they were only offered a 5 year lease option, wouldn't that have been a red flag? Especially considering they're being forced out of their existing space for the exact same reason? I know I'm rambling here, but it certainly appears that the gym weren't totally diligent when signing to take over this space.

In the meeting GRR says their lease is for 5 years with a 5 year extension option, however they need 10 years to break even on the cost of the new climbing walls they're installing in the building, which to me seems strange, why would you not just negotiate a 10 year lease to begin with. Regardless the property is a zone and flip so speculating when construction would start isn't useful, the developer isn't going to admit they're just up zoning it but anyone with a brain can just go look at the developers website where this property is marked as "land banking" and realize it's not going to happen anytime soon, so GRR is relatively safe.

[ac3r]

I don't think we should read too much into council poking their noses into lease contracts. I'm sure they were flooded with emails asking them to save the climbing gym, and now they're just paying lip service to appear sympathetic.

One detail I did find interesting was that the gym is on a 5 year lease. I'm not incredibly familiar with how these sorts of real estate deals are handled, but 5 years seems super short. The gym would have projected their income against the up front costs of setting up the new space and would have realized that the payback period was fairly long (I'm assuming years). I wouldn't be surprised if they're only breaking even after this 5 year lease ends. And if they were only offered a 5 year lease option, wouldn't that have been a red flag? Especially considering they're being forced out of their existing space for the exact same reason? I know I'm rambling here, but it certainly appears that the gym weren't totally diligent when signing to take over this space.

This is why I find it so strange. They lost their original location for the exact same reason - a pair of skyscrapers being proposed - so then they go do the exact same thing by moving into a property that was obviously inevitably going to be redeveloped. Did they not consider finding out what the state of and plans for the property on Victoria were? Not to mention, as you say, they don't seem to have the best financials. It just seems like the people running GRR have no idea what they're doing.

I suppose, as ZEBuilder states, that the property is unlikely to get redeveloped for a long time. There's a good chance it's a zone and flip, so that will add even more time to utilize the location they're in. But jeez...next time, GRR ought to do their homework. Why they would choose to move into a new location that is obviously going to get redeveloped and spend a ton of money on new climbing walls on top of that only to have to leave in a few years time is stupidity.

I guess the question is: when they have to leave this place, are they going to seek out the cheapest, run down old building they can find just because it's available and doesn't cost a lot? Because it'd be pretty funny if in 15-20 years time they find themselves in the exact same position. Though, maybe by then, someone with better business sense will open a new climbing gym. The success of a business should not be down to social media campaigns waged by business owners, climbing gym NIMBYs and pressuring (and wasting the time of) the city council in hopes they block this proposal.

[tomh009]

Maybe they were offered a very attractive rate for five years, which made it worthwhile (and made the payback period shorter).

[plam]

I guess the question is: when they have to leave this place, are they going to seek out the cheapest, run down old building they can find just because it's available and doesn't cost a lot? Because it'd be pretty funny if in 15-20 years time they find themselves in the exact same position. Though, maybe by then, someone with better business sense will open a new climbing gym. The success of a business should not be down to social media campaigns waged by business owners, climbing gym NIMBYs and pressuring (and wasting the time of) the city council in hopes they block this proposal.

I did talk to them about it when they just opened their first location.

Well, the US certainly has a number of mega climbing gyms that are totally businesses. I would kind of say that they have less of a community feel. Do we really want the climbing gym option to be a McGym? I would rather not.

[westwardloo]

Looks like this one has been approved.  I still have my doubts this will ever come to fruition, but here's hoping. 

I do think that victoria street has the potential to be transformed into a more urban road in the next 2-3 decades. I think it should be the focus of the east west LRT in the future over Ottawa st.

[SF22]

Looks like this one has been approved.  I still have my doubts this will ever come to fruition, but here's hoping. 

I do think that victoria street has the potential to be transformed into a more urban road in the next 2-3 decades. I think it should be the focus of the east west LRT in the future over Ottawa st.

I imagine that whatever developments get proposed and/or built in the next 10 years will have a heavy influence on whether Victoria or Ottawa gets chosen for future transit upgrades. If a bunch of stuff goes up along Ottawa and less on Victoria, it would just make sense to put it on Ottawa. At this point, I think we just don't have the information yet on which placement will be better (although if they chose now, then developers would have lots of time to pop buildings up along the whole length by the time the system is up and running)

[Acitta]

Updated: Kitchener council approves multi-tower Victoria Street development
Indoor climbing gym Grand River Rocks’ newest location will be somewhat short-lived, after Kitchener councillors approved the redevelopment of a Victoria Street North property.

The project will replace two existing buildings — including the former LA Fitness location where Grand River Rocks and sister business Go Bananas plan to open in June — with three towers at 236 and 264 Victoria St. N.

[plam]

Updated: Kitchener council approves multi-tower Victoria Street development
Indoor climbing gym Grand River Rocks’ newest location will be somewhat short-lived, after Kitchener councillors approved the redevelopment of a Victoria Street North property.

The project will replace two existing buildings — including the former LA Fitness location where Grand River Rocks and sister business Go Bananas plan to open in June — with three towers at 236 and 264 Victoria St. N.

Says that GRR has 3,500 to 4,000 members, which seems like a lot to me, for a place the size of KW. And I do think this is important:

“I feel Grand River Rocks is one of those organizations that’s going to be bouncing around, if we can’t find a permanent home for them.

“I can’t stress the importance of that type of community and what it brings to the city. It’s something that’s very difficult to replicate.”

We need housing, but we also need community.

[ZEBuilder]

Updated: Kitchener council approves multi-tower Victoria Street development
Indoor climbing gym Grand River Rocks’ newest location will be somewhat short-lived, after Kitchener councillors approved the redevelopment of a Victoria Street North property.

The project will replace two existing buildings — including the former LA Fitness location where Grand River Rocks and sister business Go Bananas plan to open in June — with three towers at 236 and 264 Victoria St. N.

Says that GRR has 3,500 to 4,000 members, which seems like a lot to me, for a place the size of KW. And I do think this is important:

“I feel Grand River Rocks is one of those organizations that’s going to be bouncing around, if we can’t find a permanent home for them.

“I can’t stress the importance of that type of community and what it brings to the city. It’s something that’s very difficult to replicate.”

We need housing, but we also need community.

Nobody actually knows when the developer is going to go ahead with the project, just look at half of the projects that have been approved downtown, this project in particular still needs to get record of site condition, deal with Metrolinx and CN because it's going to need a crash wall/berm (This took months to resolve at Station Park), then they have to get site plan approval, get the holding provisions lifted, then finally get permits. Even if they have those it doesn't mean they're going to build, the Victoria/Park project has had SPA for close to a year, the only action there has been the police raid on the magic mushroom shop, 20 Ottawa has had SPA for a year and nothings happened. So with that being said this isn't going to be an immediate start unless we get into some crazy financial environment making it feasible to build immediately without flooding the market. At the end of the day there are also numerous other places GRR could be located, yes there are other places where towers could be built but at the end of the day developers are going to develop they are a business after all.

If GRR wanted a permanent place they could have found a location and purchased it, or they could have negotiated a long term lease. Instead GRR negotiated for a crappy lease, 5 years plus a potential additional 5, the lease won't even guarantee them ROI on their climbing walls if it's only for those 5 years which for anyone with any financial knowledge realizes is a ridiculously stupid move on their part. That is not on the developer that is on them. At the end of the day yes what the developer did in negotiating the lease has its moral flaws but at the same time GRR could have done their due diligence to find a location that wasn't going to be realistically developed or negotiated a lease that wasn't going to financially handicap them in the future.

I certainly don't want GRR to leave the community, my friends and I have spent hours in there but the reality is we also need housing, there is little chance my friends and I will be able to afford a condo let alone a house in the city we grew up in, as much as we enjoy GRR we also recognize that we need housing, there is always going to be another empty warehouse that GRR could move into, as centrally located as their current location no but there are other places. If they want to be proactive they could go out and by a piece of land and build a purpose built facility, sure it might not be in a central location like they currently are but they will still exist, they could approach a developer about potentially incorporating it into a podium, however those are all proactive things that GRR is going to need to do if they want to stay downtown, developers are not going to build that kind of space out of the goodness of their heart, especially with the amount of parking a place like GRR demands.

[Kodra24]

From local article:
Gym Co-owner Mike Cieplak said earlier this month, they would need a minimum of ten years to make back the investment they have already made in the new location.

“The way our business is built, the capital investment is entirely all up front, which is in the climbing walls. The climbing walls are built specific to the building. They cannot just be taken apart and moved.”

The gym’s current lease only has four more years on it.

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Just doesn't seem like a smart business decision on the owner's part - hopefully they can get an extension of some sort or work something out with the landlord

[ac3r]

Just let the market sort them out, I say. If GRR has good leadership, they'll figure things out and succeed. If they lack that - which seems is indeed the case - then they'll go out of business. There should be no government intervention to save a business from its failing owners and I'm glad council wasn't having any of that crap and approved this even if the project turns out to be yet another zoning flip.

[panamaniac]

I find the fuss about GRR to be overdone, but I'm not a rock climber.

[cherrypark]

If having a community climbing gym is a critical part of community, Kitchener or the Region are both quite capable of using their land and capital budgets to build a permanent home for GRR's climbing community. Private recreation businesses can't be a reason to affect multi-decade city planning decisions.

[plam]

If GRR wanted a permanent place they could have found a location and purchased it, or they could have negotiated a long term lease. Instead GRR negotiated for a crappy lease, 5 years plus a potential additional 5, the lease won't even guarantee them ROI on their climbing walls if it's only for those 5 years which for anyone with any financial knowledge realizes is a ridiculously stupid move on their part. That is not on the developer that is on them. At the end of the day yes what the developer did in negotiating the lease has its moral flaws but at the same time GRR could have done their due diligence to find a location that wasn't going to be realistically developed or negotiated a lease that wasn't going to financially handicap them in the future.

I certainly don't want GRR to leave the community, my friends and I have spent hours in there but the reality is we also need housing, there is little chance my friends and I will be able to afford a condo let alone a house in the city we grew up in, as much as we enjoy GRR we also recognize that we need housing, there is always going to be another empty warehouse that GRR could move into, as centrally located as their current location no but there are other places. If they want to be proactive they could go out and by a piece of land and build a purpose built facility, sure it might not be in a central location like they currently are but they will still exist, they could approach a developer about potentially incorporating it into a podium, however those are all proactive things that GRR is going to need to do if they want to stay downtown, developers are not going to build that kind of space out of the goodness of their heart, especially with the amount of parking a place like GRR demands.

Yeah, I have certainly talked to them about leases in the past and I don't really understand why they are agreeing to the leases that they are. They really should rent from the bank and not from the owners.

I suspect that GRR could survive with a lot less parking than they do right now. There are gyms in Toronto that don't have parking. Toronto is a bigger city, of course, but I would really like things in KW to be less car-centric than they are.

[panamaniac]

Maybe GRR could buy that derelict building on Madison next to the tracks. I am tired of looking at it when I go by on Stirling. It needs to be either demolished or fixed up and used for something.

You mean the old Robson Lang Tannery?   I suspect that site is too toxic to be put to any use involving humans.