200 Victoria St S | 45 fl | Proposed

[SF22]

I was just wondering about that empty triangle of land the other week, good to know that someone has a plan for it. Also, really happy to see so many 3-bedroom units planned for this one. If I was intending to raise a family in a condo, 3 bedrooms right off of Victoria Park and 750m away from the city's main transit hub would not be the worst place to do it. 

A 33rd floor restaurant would be a really cool addition to DTK too, especially overlooking the park. I do wonder how long it will be before we start seeing these 25+ storey buildings going up on Victoria, east of Margaret.

[KaiserWilhelmsBust]

If you are able to, please explain why it wouldn't work.  I am not an engineer or architect..

I hate how cynical I sounded there. Obviously there is always a technical way to get things done, but within the constraints of financial feasibility there are limits. 

- 3 underground levels is very difficult due to the poor soil and shallow water table. Just makes the system very expensive (waterproofing, treatment system since the groundwater is very contaminated, expensive shoring system). I've heard that KW is basically limited to one below ground level, and any project that has attempted lower has seen millions in extra cost. This is made even worse by how they're showing the 3-4ish buildings on the corner remaining. They somehow have to secure those properties while digging down 3 levels in crappy soil. Hard to justify any of this when parking stalls are only selling for 50-60k here 

- There seems to be a majority of 800 sqft+ units. These still need to sell for above $1000 a square foot, the market for that is pretty small.

[SF22]

If you are able to, please explain why it wouldn't work.  I am not an engineer or architect..

I hate how cynical I sounded there. Obviously there is always a technical way to get things done, but within the constraints of financial feasibility there are limits. 

- 3 underground levels is very difficult due to the poor soil and shallow water table. Just makes the system very expensive (waterproofing, treatment system since the groundwater is very contaminated, expensive shoring system). I've heard that KW is basically limited to one below ground level, and any project that has attempted lower has seen millions in extra cost. This is made even worse by how they're showing the 3-4ish buildings on the corner remaining. They somehow have to secure those properties while digging down 3 levels in crappy soil. Hard to justify any of this when parking stalls are only selling for 50-60k here 

- There seems to be a majority of 800 sqft+ units. These still need to sell for above $1000 a square foot, the market for that is pretty small.

I mean, rumour is that there's a housing crisis in this province. Odds are good that the units will sell regardless of their size.

Interesting that you say KW is limiting to 1 underground level, because the plans at 146 Victoria (directly across Park St from this site with presumably similar land issues) is planning for 2 underground levels, and is bordered by single-family homes directly on both sides of the property on Victoria and Park. It's clearly allowed and possible to do the work, and maybe it is more expensive, but these companies have obviously decided that they are going to make their money back on the project.

[ZEBuilder]

If you are able to, please explain why it wouldn't work.  I am not an engineer or architect..

I hate how cynical I sounded there. Obviously there is always a technical way to get things done, but within the constraints of financial feasibility there are limits. 

- 3 underground levels is very difficult due to the poor soil and shallow water table. Just makes the system very expensive (waterproofing, treatment system since the groundwater is very contaminated, expensive shoring system). I've heard that KW is basically limited to one below ground level, and any project that has attempted lower has seen millions in extra cost. This is made even worse by how they're showing the 3-4ish buildings on the corner remaining. They somehow have to secure those properties while digging down 3 levels in crappy soil. Hard to justify any of this when parking stalls are only selling for 50-60k here 

- There seems to be a majority of 800 sqft+ units. These still need to sell for above $1000 a square foot, the market for that is pretty small.

To name a few developments with two or more floors of underground parking in downtown Kitchener;
Charlie West 
Drewlo on the Madison Charles Corner
Station Park (3 floors)

So it is most definitely possible to do 3 floors below grade, especially when there is no parking in the podium (Station park phase 1 and this proposal)

[ac3r]

I'm surprised by the high number of three bedroom units.   Do we know if this is intended to be a rental building or is it another "investment" condo?

Zero chance this gets built. The owner is just trying to get it approved for max density to lift the sale value of the land. 

Pretty clear when you look at the drawings. 3 levels of underground parking and the units are massive, no way that would work.

Do you mean the entire project, or 3 bedroom units?

I was starting to question things as I looked into the documents and looked up some of the names. For one, the biggest red flag is the numbered corporation name but meh, whatever. Second is that IBI Group seems to be doing all this work. IBI is great and have offices all over the world, but they're just a global engineering/architectural consultation firm. Anyone can hire them to do some consultation work, hack together a tower and propose it.

Anyone remember 87 Regina? Probably not. It was designed by BDP Quadrangle Architects (one of the best firms in Toronto IMO) so everyone thought oh yeah this will look great! Heart of uptown, beautiful building. It was even approved. Then people realized the "developer" is Torgan Group, who is just a holding group who own primarily dirty old stripmalls and other garbage around the GTA. What about Virerra Village? Awful looking buildings no doubt, but the entire project seemed sketchy from the start. The developer was "Viridis Development Group" which no longer exists and as far as I know, never really did apart from an address in a strip mall on Trillium Drive with help from "CORE + Partners" (who operate as a REIT or something) shilling for them. That property went up for sale. Not sure about 87 Regina, Torgan probably still owns it and did a bait and switch, hoping another developer wants to buy it up now that they know approval for a tower there will be easy.

Of course here's hoping it does get developed. I'm indifferent to the building itself...just looks like generic corporate architecture any small team of newbies can throw together. The property (land) is no doubt valuable. But KaiserWilhelmsBust raises a good point regarding the money. Does it make financial sense for a project of this size here in the region yet? Comments on the forum will always tell you yes but that doesn't mean much because you could propose a bike lane to the moon and be told it's a fabulous idea.

[bravado]

you could propose a bike lane to the moon and be told it's a fabulous idea.

Only if it’s separated from traffic imo

[KaiserWilhelmsBust]

I hate how cynical I sounded there. Obviously there is always a technical way to get things done, but within the constraints of financial feasibility there are limits. 

- 3 underground levels is very difficult due to the poor soil and shallow water table. Just makes the system very expensive (waterproofing, treatment system since the groundwater is very contaminated, expensive shoring system). I've heard that KW is basically limited to one below ground level, and any project that has attempted lower has seen millions in extra cost. This is made even worse by how they're showing the 3-4ish buildings on the corner remaining. They somehow have to secure those properties while digging down 3 levels in crappy soil. Hard to justify any of this when parking stalls are only selling for 50-60k here 

- There seems to be a majority of 800 sqft+ units. These still need to sell for above $1000 a square foot, the market for that is pretty small.

To name a few developments with two or more floors of underground parking in downtown Kitchener;
Charlie West 
Drewlo on the Madison Charles Corner
Station Park (3 floors)

So it is most definitely possible to do 3 floors below grade, especially when there is no parking in the podium (Station park phase 1 and this proposal)

I never said it wasn't possible, but take a survey of anyone who has built more than 1 level below grade here and they will all tell you the same thing. Larger projects (multiple towers) can be a bit of an exception through the increases in efficient design. I talked to the builders of one of the projects you named and the second level ended up adding months and millions of dollars. 

the other park/vic project is also being done by a strip mall developer with no experience in the area, so i wouldn't say them going down 2 means this one can go down 3

[ijmorlan]

The difficulty of digging deep can depend on the specific property. Two locations separated by a couple of blocks could have significantly different ground conditions. It’s entirely possible one could be a routine digging project while the other would be a massive endeavour to keep the water out and prevent slumping of the ground.

[tomh009]

To name a few developments with two or more floors of underground parking in downtown Kitchener;
Charlie West 
Drewlo on the Madison Charles Corner
Station Park (3 floors)

So it is most definitely possible to do 3 floors below grade, especially when there is no parking in the podium (Station park phase 1 and this proposal)

I never said it wasn't possible, but take a survey of anyone who has built more than 1 level below grade here and they will all tell you the same thing. Larger projects (multiple towers) can be a bit of an exception through the increases in efficient design. I talked to the builders of one of the projects you named and the second level ended up adding months and millions of dollars. 

55 King St W (the former TD/Canada Trust tower) has four levels underground. There are lots of buildings with two, and they certainly were not all problematic (the building we live in had its issues but the parking garage, three levels deep, was not one of those problem areas).

[panamaniac]

I never said it wasn't possible, but take a survey of anyone who has built more than 1 level below grade here and they will all tell you the same thing. Larger projects (multiple towers) can be a bit of an exception through the increases in efficient design. I talked to the builders of one of the projects you named and the second level ended up adding months and millions of dollars. 

55 King St W (the former TD/Canada Trust tower) has four levels underground. There are lots of buildings with two, and they certainly were not all problematic (the building we live in had its issues but the parking garage, three levels deep, was not one of those problem areas).

I suspect that the depth of underground parking garages in much of Kitchener is only an issue because the City has no problem approving podium parking.

[nms]

On a positive note, this render acknowledges the presence of another planned development (Victoria/Park) rather than pretending to be an isolated tower.

[ac3r]

On a positive note, this render acknowledges the presence of another planned development (Victoria/Park) rather than pretending to be an isolated tower.

Well the project went to the Provincial government. They approved it, albeit with a smaller donation for affordable housing. Thanks, Chapman!

And the nearby 130-142 Victoria got redesigned AFAIK, so it has to go to council again. No clue what the result will be with that one...hopefully positive.

[KaiserWilhelmsBust]

55 King St W (the former TD/Canada Trust tower) has four levels underground. There are lots of buildings with two, and they certainly were not all problematic (the building we live in had its issues but the parking garage, three levels deep, was not one of those problem areas).

I suspect that the depth of underground parking garages in much of Kitchener is only an issue because the City has no problem approving podium parking.

FSR calculations encourage underground parking. I'm sure multiple levels will continue to happen, but you'll see the majority of experienced developers doing whatever they can to avoid it. I also know of two projects in DTK held up over podium parking, so I wouldn't say the city has "no problem approving" it.

[tomh009]

I suspect that the depth of underground parking garages in much of Kitchener is only an issue because the City has no problem approving podium parking.

FSR calculations encourage underground parking. I'm sure multiple levels will continue to happen, but you'll see the majority of experienced developers doing whatever they can to avoid it. I also know of two projects in DTK held up over podium parking, so I wouldn't say the city has "no problem approving" it.

Sure, it's less expensive to build podium parking anyway. But the point I (and others) made is that multiple levels of underground parking are far from impossible.

[cherrypark]

If we are piling on speculation, how much of the underground parking is that lot out to Park St. and is it possible that area won't be needed if they get forced to hack 10 stories off the proposal?

I just want to see that contaminated sand pit get turned into something useful, so happy to see this even if it ends up re-packaged into a sale to someone else who will get the job done.