Kraus Development (525-565 Conestogo Road) | 3-35 fl | Proposed

[ac3r]

Aw, yuck, so basically another suburb in the sky. I had ownership of a large condo unit in Toronto some years ago in the CityPlace area which was kind of between the Gardner/Bathurst/Spadina/the railroad tracks.

Same deal: a bunch of generic condo towers surrounding an ugly "park" in the middle and some little streets between everything. It was the most lifeless, sterile and dull place you could possibly live in despite it being downtown Toronto. For one, the buildings were utter garbage and quickly began falling apart (lots of horror stories about them online) but most of all the atmosphere was just...yuck. You could tell you weren't living somewhere authentic. It was just a dead, soulless little corporate development zone in the city that nobody truly wanted to live in and nobody ever ventured out to. It's 2023 and Canoe Landing Park is still basically just a big patch of grass for birds to shit on because it was not a comfortable place to live. Eventually, Torontonians described it as a ghetto and it still has that reputation.

The first proposal for this Kraus redevelopment wasn't much different but it did seem to have a bit more dynamism in the layout of things. Now it's basically looks like a cul-de-sac with skyscrapers around it. Though I guess due to the area this is in...it was doomed to suck no matter what. It's in an old light industrial area so anyone living there is basically going to only ever be in their condo or car, while driving to other places. These kind of large developments are almost always terrible.

[westwardloo]

Interesting, I like the "massing" better in the second iteration, but like the street grid system of the first design. I think it is nice that they included a park, but I wish it was better connected to Northfield, seems like the "park" will be meant for only residents of the development and not a park for all of waterloo to enjoy. The retail row was better in the first design, but I could see it not getting much outside traffic. The pedestrian bridge is pretty much cancelled at this point. I have very little hope of it ever being built. I am surprised who ever owns the site switched from ABA to Turner Flesher

Like Ac3r said, this feels very suburban compared to some of the newer master planned communities in Toronto, Vaughan or Richmond Hill.

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2023/08/den...hill.53529
https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2023/07/qua...site.53205

[KevinL]

I can live with the bridge's new position if the western side is given two access routes - one to the Ion station and another to the hydro corridor and Dutton Drive. Then new bike paths can connect along Weber and Albert to the Waterloop. That could be a good addition to the active transport network.

[ac3r]

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2023/08/den...hill.53529

Ah yeah, I know this one. It's a good example of how to design such large communities in one go while also (at least hopefully) allowing it to feel a bit more lively. The various massings, positions and orientations of the buildings really helps the place feel a little less curated when you are on the ground.

There is a nice variation on green spaces: instead of just one large park/field, there are lots of different places with sufficient foliage/grass and lots of shade, which is not only pleasant for people who want to be outdoors but also for the ecology. It's often overlooked in planning and design the necessity of good greenspaces. Reason being is that different areas, spaces and plant life can have an impact on things like pollinators, birds, other small animals and even insects that live in the urban environment. Most creatures don't like to coalesce in one specific place - particularly if it's very open. These sort of micro-ecological niches allow for greater environmental diversity (as insufficient as it is...but creatures will still try to live there) in urban environments. They're also good for handling storm water runoff, snow piles in the winter from plowing and better urban heat island mitigations.

At the same time this project also illustrates the issue with developments like these: suburbs in the sky, as mentioned. For one, the character of these sort of developments is and likely always will be inadequately vibrant and unique. By this I simply mean how in every place human beings settle, different characteristics of different areas of said settlements contribute to the culture of the place and people. Think of places like Mile End or Kensington Market in Montréal and Toronto respectively, or just the local characteristics and difference in vibe which differs between Victoria Park, the Market District or Hespeler. Sculpted new neighbourhoods like this one or the one at Bathurst/407 risk forever suffering from feeling as lifeless and dead as an average SFH suburb. You might see more people outside but they're places in an urban space that will either take a long time or never really have a sense of culture and community.

The location of this project (the one in North York and this local one) also illustrates the problems with transit when you build incredibly dense neighbourhoods so far removed from things like transit or significant places (universities, business centres, culturally signifcant areas etc), recreational spaces and so on. I know the LRT is planned to go nearby but who knows if that will even get built and even if it does, it barely suffices as rapid transit for a region that will be nearing 900k to 1'000'000 people by the time any of this is completed. But I suppose the long, long, looonngggg term vision planners have is that very large swaths of the low density industrial and commercial on either side of Hespeler Road will be developed into high density (especially if/when the LRT is there), but that's a long way off. It's a great area to redevelop in time, but it has to be done right. I mean visit Beijing and you can lots of modern mixed-use development in recent years that is utterly lacking any soul and personality. You have to carefully plan and integrate that in minute ways for tangible community and culture to actually evolve.

Edit: If anyone wants to read a good short book on this, I suggest Marc Augé's "Non-Places - An Introduction to Supermodernity". In urban planning and architecture a non-place in his definition is (to borrow from Wikipedia) defined as: "anthropological spaces of transience where human beings remain anonymous, and that do not hold enough significance to be regarded as "places". His book and concept tend to define them in terms of places like malls, airports, train stations etc as they are places where lots of people congregate and utilize, but do not occupy to any extent, resulting in them being devoid of any significance and personality. In more recent theory, it has also been used to define modern high density developments like these because many residents are renters or condo owners who don't make it a permanent home; they are disconnected by transit and thus utilize cars; likely don't work or spend much time in the development; a micro-culture and community struggles to take root etc, making the space feel like a non-place. It's a really good read and a theory that is increasingly being revisited in this field. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/328450.Non_Places

Also just realized I confused this with the SmartCentres development...lol...point still stands about it being in an awkward area that will definitely need some transit improvements! High density smack dab next to highway exits are basically suburbs.

[tomh009]

There is a new application for this site from April/May 2023. Looks like they've really redesigned the whole layout, including a new Central Park-style parkspace (park surrounded by tall buildings). Honestly, it looks a lot more logically laid out now. Pedestrian bridge is still being proposed, so that's good. https://www.engagewr.ca/525-to-565-conestogo-rd-w

The pedestrian bridge now seems to connected to the wooded area of the ION OMSF, which is pretty far from the ION station. I don't really see the point of it as it's currently shown, seems like a bridge to nowhere that will never be used. They need to bridge to actually meaningfully connect to the ION station, without an extremely circuitous route.

Presumably there would be a trail through the wooded area. Can't put the bridge next to Northfield due to the on/off-ramps. Don't know how much shorter the trip would be if the bridge were from closer the middle of the development, or whether the private property owner on the other side would agree to it.

Knowing actual distances would be very useful.

[SF22]

The pedestrian bridge now seems to connected to the wooded area of the ION OMSF, which is pretty far from the ION station. I don't really see the point of it as it's currently shown, seems like a bridge to nowhere that will never be used. They need to bridge to actually meaningfully connect to the ION station, without an extremely circuitous route.

Presumably there would be a trail through the wooded area. Can't put the bridge next to Northfield due to the on/off-ramps. Don't know how much shorter the trip would be if the bridge were from closer the middle of the development, or whether the private property owner on the other side would agree to it.

Knowing actual distances would be very useful.

Using the Google Maps measure tool, I would estimate that a pedestrian path from the Northfield Station would be between 500-600m long to connect with the corner of the Kraus lot where they've indicated the bridge would be.

[tomh009]

Thanks. That's a 5-10 minute walk for most people, and less on a bicycle. More, of course, if you live at the opposite corner of the development. Still, seems not unreasonable.

[ac3r]

I hope a mere 5-10 minute walk would never be considered unreasonable haha. Maybe to sedentary suburbanites but for anyone else...that's nothing.

[plam]

I hope a mere 5-10 minute walk would never be considered unreasonable haha. Maybe to sedentary suburbanites but for anyone else...that's nothing.

Depends on how unpleasant/hostile the area is to walking.

[SF22]

I hope a mere 5-10 minute walk would never be considered unreasonable haha. Maybe to sedentary suburbanites but for anyone else...that's nothing.

Depends on how unpleasant/hostile the area is to walking.

The section over the highway is likely to suck no matter what, but if the other half of the path is through the forested area behind the ION maintenance facility, maybe that will provide some balance.

[ijmorlan]

Depends on how unpleasant/hostile the area is to walking.

The section over the highway is likely to suck no matter what, but if the other half of the path is through the forested area behind the ION maintenance facility, maybe that will provide some balance.

Is it too much to hope for an enclosed bridge? I don’t care if it’s heated for the winter as long as it’s ventilated in summer. That would keep the noise out.

[ac3r]

Good luck trying to convince a developer to build a heated, enclosed bridge that provides absolutely no benefit to their development lol. I'd be surprised if they even build one at all because it will cost them a lot of money and take more effort to work with the MTO. I mean it would be nice but don't believe that most people living here are going to be transit enthusiasts who want easier access to the LRT. Most people living in these vertical suburbs are going to have cars.

[panamaniac]

The section over the highway is likely to suck no matter what, but if the other half of the path is through the forested area behind the ION maintenance facility, maybe that will provide some balance.

Is it too much to hope for an enclosed bridge? I don’t care if it’s heated for the winter as long as it’s ventilated in summer. That would keep the noise out.

Probably.

[ijmorlan]

Good luck trying to convince a developer to build a heated, enclosed bridge that provides absolutely no benefit to their development lol. I'd be surprised if they even build one at all because it will cost them a lot of money and take more effort to work with the MTO. I mean it would be nice but don't believe that most people living here are going to be transit enthusiasts who want easier access to the LRT. Most people living in these vertical suburbs are going to have cars.

I didn’t say heated; in fact, I suggested it doesn’t need to be heated (it’s still way better than crossing a snowy uncovered bridge above a major highway even if it’s -20ºC in there). But yeah, you’re right, except for the “no benefit” bit. Living there would obviously be better with the bridge than without for many people, and the presence of the bridge can be expected to change the selection of people who live there in the direction of being people who use the LRT.

[KevinL]

An enclosed bridge means keeping the snow off, and the MTO won't like that snow going on the highway, so it'll need roof drainage. That will probably mean at least somewhat pricy engineering.