Japan's lack of zoning regs

[plam]

I think that ijmorland would appreciate this. It's old but just came to my attention today.

https://marketurbanismreport.com/blog/to...uild-build

The Japanese federal government struck down all? zoning and developers can build whatever residential property they want. Result: lots of housing supply and hence cheaper housing. (Supply and demand!)

[jeffster]

I think that ijmorland would appreciate this. It's old but just came to my attention today.

https://marketurbanismreport.com/blog/to...uild-build

The Japanese federal government struck down all? zoning and developers can build whatever residential property they want. Result: lots of housing supply and hence cheaper housing. (Supply and demand!)

Interesting. It would be nice to see it fly here, but I think culturally we’re too different. But as noted, it would be helpful if it was a federal law that came into place. I get the feeling that NIMBY’ism isn’t as big of an issue over in Japan. Just look at the Google building going up....the whole thing should have been approved from the get go. But here we are.

[dtkvictim]

I think that ijmorland would appreciate this. It's old but just came to my attention today.

https://marketurbanismreport.com/blog/to...uild-build

The Japanese federal government struck down all? zoning and developers can build whatever residential property they want. Result: lots of housing supply and hence cheaper housing. (Supply and demand!)

Japan's zoning is far more simplified, liberal, and inclusionary than what we have here, but it's still zoning. They still have exclusively low-rise residential zones (gasp), height minimums and maximums, and land coverage rules, even though people like to pretend this isn't the case.

From what I understand, the federal government has defined all the zoning rules, and it's up to cities to apply it however they want. I am curious in the case of Tokyo if the metro government applies the zoning, or if the wards are in charge of that.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if housing starts including redevelopment then I think this is a very misleading statistic in the context of Japan. For many different reasons, it's very common for livable homes to be demolished and rebuilt without adding any new housing units. Of course, we certainly still need more here.

I also think it's a bit of a joke to call a city on the verge of population decline (in a country already in population decline) a fast growing city comparable to what we have in the west.

Also, I keep seeing a bunch of websites using really low quality Japanese zoning images. Most of them seem to come from here, along with a lot of really useful information about the topic: https://www.mlit.go.jp/common/001050453.pdf

Interesting. It would be nice to see it fly here, but I think culturally we’re too different. But as noted, it would be helpful if it was a federal law that came into place. I get the feeling that NIMBY’ism isn’t as big of an issue over in Japan. Just look at the Google building going up....the whole thing should have been approved from the get go. But here we are.

Based on my link above, I don't think saying the Google building would have just been approved would be so cut and dry. Certainly the public consultation and compromise wouldn't exist, but the building might not be allowed. It's either the zoning allows it or it doesn't.

The cultural aspect is a funny one. When I was Googling for more information on this, I came across quite a lot of comments from (presumably) westerners living in Japan complaining that they don't think Japanese zoning is restrictive enough and leads to too many problems. I'd be curious to know how Japanese people feel about it. Personally I sort of understand; despite the fact that I think Tokyo is probably the best overall city in the world, I would still hesitate to say I'd want to live there.

[ijmorlan]

I think that ijmorland would appreciate this. It's old but just came to my attention today.

https://marketurbanismreport.com/blog/to...uild-build

The Japanese federal government struck down all? zoning and developers can build whatever residential property they want. Result: lots of housing supply and hence cheaper housing. (Supply and demand!)

Thanks for the link. Very interesting! The usual North American way is far from the only way things are done worldwide.

[jeffster]

Based on my link above, I don't think saying the Google building would have just been approved would be so cut and dry. Certainly the public consultation and compromise wouldn't exist, but the building might not be allowed. It's either the zoning allows it or it doesn't.

The cultural aspect is a funny one. When I was Googling for more information on this, I came across quite a lot of comments from (presumably) westerners living in Japan complaining that they don't think Japanese zoning is restrictive enough and leads to too many problems. I'd be curious to know how Japanese people feel about it. Personally I sort of understand; despite the fact that I think Tokyo is probably the best overall city in the world, I would still hesitate to say I'd want to live there.

1) The city had correct zoning which Google followed, neighbours asked it to changed, IIRC. I mean, that’s how I recall it.

2) What sort of “problems”? Not that I study Japanese culture a lot, I do know a little bit. Any problem wouldn’t involve litter, stolen property, break-ins, etc. The problem I could see is crowded sidewalks, streets and transit. Tokyo has about 30M people living in it, which is almost like all of Canada in a very small space. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to live there either.

[dtkvictim]

Based on my link above, I don't think saying the Google building would have just been approved would be so cut and dry. Certainly the public consultation and compromise wouldn't exist, but the building might not be allowed. It's either the zoning allows it or it doesn't.

The cultural aspect is a funny one. When I was Googling for more information on this, I came across quite a lot of comments from (presumably) westerners living in Japan complaining that they don't think Japanese zoning is restrictive enough and leads to too many problems. I'd be curious to know how Japanese people feel about it. Personally I sort of understand; despite the fact that I think Tokyo is probably the best overall city in the world, I would still hesitate to say I'd want to live there.

1) The city had correct zoning which Google followed, neighbours asked it to changed, IIRC. I mean, that’s how I recall it. 

2) What sort of “problems”? Not that I study Japanese culture a lot, I do know a little bit. Any problem wouldn’t involve litter, stolen property, break-ins, etc. The problem I could see is crowded sidewalks, streets and transit. Tokyo has about 30M people living in it, which is almost like all of Canada in a very small space. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to live there either.

1) I was just trying to highlight the difference between here and Japan. The difference isn't that they can just build whatever they want anywhere, the difference is that if they meet the zoning regulations then the neighbors don't really have a say.

2) I just skimmed through their comments because I didn't really care that much, and I'm not saying that I believe their opinions are valid. The complaint I saw most often was that they felt there were too many factories in close proximity to housing (and this primarily becomes lower income housing because of that). I know you can find garbage incinerators all over in the middle of the city (I have no idea about the health/environmental effects of burning trash though, maybe it's fine). Another complaint that I am not phrasing quite as well as they did, was somewhat about a lack of cohesiveness, or a sort of chaos to it.

As I think about it though, I'd almost certainly rather live in Tokyo than Toronto (if we ignore work culture), so my feelings probably aren't based around a preference for our zoning over theirs. I'm just not much of a big city person.

[danbrotherston]

I think that ijmorland would appreciate this. It's old but just came to my attention today.

https://marketurbanismreport.com/blog/to...uild-build

The Japanese federal government struck down all? zoning and developers can build whatever residential property they want. Result: lots of housing supply and hence cheaper housing. (Supply and demand!)

Interesting. It would be nice to see it fly here, but I think culturally we’re too different. But as noted, it would be helpful if it was a federal law that came into place. I get the feeling that NIMBY’ism isn’t as big of an issue over in Japan. Just look at the Google building going up....the whole thing should have been approved from the get go. But here we are.

Culturally we are very different, we are far more individualistic, and scream about freedom a great deal more. This should actually be MORE palatable here, if we actually believed any of the things we claim to believe. Sadly, I suspect you are right, we don't actually believe in other's freedom, only our "freedom" to restrict others.

[jeffster]

1) The city had correct zoning which Google followed, neighbours asked it to changed, IIRC. I mean, that’s how I recall it. 

2) What sort of “problems”? Not that I study Japanese culture a lot, I do know a little bit. Any problem wouldn’t involve litter, stolen property, break-ins, etc. The problem I could see is crowded sidewalks, streets and transit. Tokyo has about 30M people living in it, which is almost like all of Canada in a very small space. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to live there either.

1) I was just trying to highlight the difference between here and Japan. The difference isn't that they can just build whatever they want anywhere, the difference is that if they meet the zoning regulations then the neighbors don't really have a say.

2) I just skimmed through their comments because I didn't really care that much, and I'm not saying that I believe their opinions are valid. The complaint I saw most often was that they felt there were too many factories in close proximity to housing (and this primarily becomes lower income housing because of that). I know you can find garbage incinerators all over in the middle of the city (I have no idea about the health/environmental effects of burning trash though, maybe it's fine). Another complaint that I am not phrasing quite as well as they did, was somewhat about a lack of cohesiveness, or a sort of chaos to it.

As I think about it though, I'd almost certainly rather live in Tokyo than Toronto (if we ignore work culture), so my feelings probably aren't based around a preference for our zoning over theirs. I'm just not much of a big city person.

Got it...that all makes perfect sense. There is chaos in that city, but again, it’s huge. I had no idea of the incinerators though. I am guessing they’re limited to what they can do with their garbage.

[plam]

1) I was just trying to highlight the difference between here and Japan. The difference isn't that they can just build whatever they want anywhere, the difference is that if they meet the zoning regulations then the neighbors don't really have a say.

2) I just skimmed through their comments because I didn't really care that much, and I'm not saying that I believe their opinions are valid. The complaint I saw most often was that they felt there were too many factories in close proximity to housing (and this primarily becomes lower income housing because of that). I know you can find garbage incinerators all over in the middle of the city (I have no idea about the health/environmental effects of burning trash though, maybe it's fine). Another complaint that I am not phrasing quite as well as they did, was somewhat about a lack of cohesiveness, or a sort of chaos to it.

As I think about it though, I'd almost certainly rather live in Tokyo than Toronto (if we ignore work culture), so my feelings probably aren't based around a preference for our zoning over theirs. I'm just not much of a big city person.

Got it...that all makes perfect sense. There is chaos in that city, but again, it’s huge. I had no idea of the incinerators though. I am guessing they’re limited to what they can do with their garbage.

Looks like they burn a lot of their waste (including plastics) at high temperatures. Which is better than burning it at low temperatures, in that it only produces CO2 and not furans, but not great.

I've read about cities where you can build anything permitted by zoning, and other cities where it's basically expected to be a negotiation with council. Toronto, for instance, is definitely a negotiation city.

It looks like until the past two years, Tokyo has been growing at 0.20% in the 2010s, and at 0.7% in the 2000s. Which still accounts for an additional 3 million people out of a total population of 37 million; no additional building ought to have resulted in higher prices.

[ac3r]

[I suspect you are right, we don't actually believe in other's freedom, only our "freedom" to restrict others.

Old thread I wandered into but yeah, 100%. Urban planning on this continent is mostly terrible. It's excessively restrictive.

[tomh009]

[I suspect you are right, we don't actually believe in other's freedom, only our "freedom" to restrict others.

Old thread I wandered into but yeah, 100%. Urban planning on this continent is mostly terrible. It's excessively restrictive.

UK is very restrictive as well, as are many other European countries.

[nms]

How much of this is a cultural or regional thing? If the general expectation is that any development will be acceptable to the location, then more freedom is granted within the system. If on the other hand, the expectation is that the primary goal is to maximize the profit for the property owner regardless the final product, then that can lead to an incredible amount of cynicism in the whole process and result in more restrictive planning processes.