Manulife (King Centre) redevelopment project

[timio]

The escalators are long, narrow (single person), and slow. After the recent reno, they're really the only part that gives suggestion it may have been out of the 80's.

[BruceAshe]

Rumours had been swirling for a while that Google was going to lease part of the old King Centre (and that Faire would take another large chunk) but all leasing got put on hold with Covid WFH shutdowns. Looks like Google has officially gone ahead though, permit was issued in early April.

Would this be temp until their new facilities are completed? Or would this be ‘in addition to’ the new facilities?

Unit 200 would refer to the second (ground) floor I assume.

In November 2019 renovations for Google on the second floor (top level)of the building had already started. Last time I was inside King Centre was in January or February of 2020 and the escalators nearest the main Water St entrance were blocked off and it wasn't possible to even see anything happening in the second floor. Manulife still had a small amount of staff working in the building at that time. So I'm curious what this permit if for if work was already underway 18 months ago. Perhaps they are going to leave the ground floor in addition to the second?

[KevinL]

The food court are retained its 'sunken pit' configuration into the mid-90s, even after all the food places were gone. One would walk past that on your way into LaserQuest, the only retail enterprise on that level at the time.

[BruceAshe]

The food court are retained its 'sunken pit' configuration into the mid-90s, even after all the food places were gone. One would walk past that on your way into LaserQuest, the only retail enterprise on that level at the time.

The sunken area is still there. First time I walked past it instantly brought me back to my high school years.

[jeffster]

I wish I had pictures too but I'll attempt to jog some memories. The mall's directional signage was always backlit and in a curved pill-shaped design. There were skylights above the escalators, When you ate at the Robinson's restaurant, you were on the top floor, right next to a huge atrium. The food court was down in the basement, sunken to the absolute lowest level in the mall.

I don't know how literally no photos of this mall exist.

It is interesting how there are no photos available. I remember the hydraulic piston elevator that was glass. When we were teens, we'd go 'into the maze', the tunnels linking the stores to I guess the shipping/receiving area. Had a few guards chase us. Good times.

[nms]

The closest that I could find was that YouTube has a commercial circa Christmas 1983. (there are dozens more semi-local commercials on the extended playlist again, circa 1983)

This is further proof that not everything is on the Internet.

[jeffster]

The closest that I could find was that YouTube has a commercial circa Christmas 1983. (there are dozens more semi-local commercials on the extended playlist again, circa 1983)

This is further proof that not everything is on the Internet.

Really poorly put together commercial though -- it does nothing to show what King Centre is like.

I guess people cared so little for this mall that no one ever bothered save any historical data. Which proves that not everything is worth saving (though in this case, that building is fine and still has a lot of life in it). It does make you wonder how a mall like this would function, say, 5 years from now when the downtown landscape is going to be unrecognizable. It might have actually done well.

[danbrotherston]

The closest that I could find was that YouTube has a commercial circa Christmas 1983. (there are dozens more semi-local commercials on the extended playlist again, circa 1983)

This is further proof that not everything is on the Internet.

Really poorly put together commercial though -- it does nothing to show what King Centre is like.

I guess people cared so little for this mall that no one ever bothered save any historical data. Which proves that not everything is worth saving (though in this case, that building is fine and still has a lot of life in it). It does make you wonder how a mall like this would function, say, 5 years from now when the downtown landscape is going to be unrecognizable. It might have actually done well.

*A* mall might do well...*that* mall never will. The people who designed that mall had no understanding of how streets worked. The mall is disconnected and separate from the street, there is no engagement...there are "mall people" who probably arrive by car, and never interact with the street, and there are "outside people" who get nothing from the mall but a mostly blank wall on most sides.

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

[dtkvictim]

Really poorly put together commercial though -- it does nothing to show what King Centre is like.

I guess people cared so little for this mall that no one ever bothered save any historical data. Which proves that not everything is worth saving (though in this case, that building is fine and still has a lot of life in it). It does make you wonder how a mall like this would function, say, 5 years from now when the downtown landscape is going to be unrecognizable. It might have actually done well.

*A* mall might do well...*that* mall never will. The people who designed that mall had no understanding of how streets worked. The mall is disconnected and separate from the street, there is no engagement...there are "mall people" who probably arrive by car, and never interact with the street, and there are "outside people" who get nothing from the mall but a mostly blank wall on most sides.

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

I'd be interested in seeing that mall you are talking about in the Netherlands for comparison. Disclaimer: I've never been in this building, except I think laser tag was in here when I was a child? There isn't much going on street interaction wise would help this building succeed as a mall, but I don't think that means it would be destined for failure. Personally, I wouldn't care if a business was in this building or directly on King St. I would only care if it's a business I want to go to. It would be in walking distance either way. I think I would actually be quite happy to have both styles of shopping downtown.

[jeffster]

Really poorly put together commercial though -- it does nothing to show what King Centre is like.

I guess people cared so little for this mall that no one ever bothered save any historical data. Which proves that not everything is worth saving (though in this case, that building is fine and still has a lot of life in it). It does make you wonder how a mall like this would function, say, 5 years from now when the downtown landscape is going to be unrecognizable. It might have actually done well.

*A* mall might do well...*that* mall never will. The people who designed that mall had no understanding of how streets worked. The mall is disconnected and separate from the street, there is no engagement...there are "mall people" who probably arrive by car, and never interact with the street, and there are "outside people" who get nothing from the mall but a mostly blank wall on most sides.

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

That’s an idea situation. So, with that in mind, it COULD be possible to make that mall the way you just explained, but would require a lot of work — and likely only 1 floor (ground). It this feasible anywhere in DTK or any of the cores?

[ijmorlan]

I'd be interested in seeing that mall you are talking about in the Netherlands for comparison. Disclaimer: I've never been in this building, except I think laser tag was in here when I was a child? There isn't much going on street interaction wise would help this building succeed as a mall, but I don't think that means it would be destined for failure. Personally, I wouldn't care if a business was in this building or directly on King St. I would only care if it's a business I want to go to. It would be in walking distance either way. I think I would actually be quite happy to have both styles of shopping downtown.

Exactly. Not promoting this building as an awesome building, but let’s do a thought experiment. Rip the building down and replace it with a narrow street or even a pedestrianized lane starting at King St. and running over to Joseph, with shops on both sides. All the urban planning city builders would love it right? OK, but how different is that hypothetical construction from the present building (when it was a mall)? You walk off King St., and follow a pedestrianized lane starting at King St. and running over to Joseph with stores on either side.

I just find it absolutely inconceivable that the problem is the presence of a roof and climate control.

Now what could be the problem, or at least a significant problem, is the fact that the “pedestrianized lane” does not actually meet Charles St. but instead flies over it a floor up; as far as I know there wasn’t even a way to get to Charles St. from the corridor at all, never mind a convenient and obvious one; and then further over, as far as I know there was no access to Joseph St. (I assume there must have been a fire exit but I’m talking about a normal route). So for no particularly good reason it was a dead-end “lane” (corridor) starting at King St. rather than a lane with 2 segments of one block each.

It doesn’t help that the building manages to present a “back wall” to both sides of Charles St. at once.

[tomh009]

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

In Japan, covered streets (malls?) are quite common.

[dtkvictim]

In Japan, covered streets (malls?) are quite common.

Covered shoutengai are interesting. I think they seem like a good idea when you see them in Japan, because of the magic touch that Japan seems to have on most things. But if you take a step back, they aren't really anything special compared to regular shopping streets or regular malls. As far as I am aware, they are actually dying out in Japan, whereas proper malls built around train stations are thriving. Imagine if both Ion stops were under the King Center bridge and integrated directly in a mall.

Maybe I've never seen an "in between" one, but shopping arcades seem to only be the beautiful and grand European arcades or middle eastern bazaars, or a cheap looking roof over a regular street. They can certainly be functional, but the shops inside are still what's most important.

[danbrotherston]

*A* mall might do well...*that* mall never will. The people who designed that mall had no understanding of how streets worked. The mall is disconnected and separate from the street, there is no engagement...there are "mall people" who probably arrive by car, and never interact with the street, and there are "outside people" who get nothing from the mall but a mostly blank wall on most sides.

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

That’s an idea situation. So, with that in mind, it COULD be possible to make that mall the way you just explained, but would require a lot of work — and likely only 1 floor (ground). It this feasible anywhere in DTK or any of the cores?

I'm not certain these things are possible with a retrofit...often times the "ground floor" differs significantly from the level of the street. The mall in question seems to be level on King, but not on Charles, so King could be improved. But it would require significant reconfiguration inside to meet the needs of stores being active on the street AND in the mall, and also being able to receive deliveries.

I'm no expert on mall design, I just know it can be done well.

Edit: ijmorlan gives a good suggestion...

[danbrotherston]

In Japan, covered streets (malls?) are quite common.

Covered shoutengai are interesting. I think they seem like a good idea when you see them in Japan, because of the magic touch that Japan seems to have on most things. But if you take a step back, they aren't really anything special compared to regular shopping streets or regular malls. As far as I am aware, they are actually dying out in Japan, whereas proper malls built around train stations are thriving. Imagine if both Ion stops were under the King Center bridge and integrated directly in a mall.

Maybe I've never seen an "in between" one, but shopping arcades seem to only be the beautiful and grand European arcades or middle eastern bazaars, or a cheap looking roof over a regular street. They can certainly be functional, but the shops inside are still what's most important.

The ultimate evolution of porticos?