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Ending Chronic Homelessness
#61
(05-29-2022, 09:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Homeless people are people, they should suffer the same consequences for their behaviour that you and I do.

That’s a nice theory, but you can’t have people setting fires in an apartment building. It’s not about punishment or whatever; it’s about how much you can reasonably ask their immediate neighbors (other formerly homeless people) to put up with.

And part of the issue is that there is no point in punishing these people. Somebody who sets a fire in a building is not thinking clearly and simply punishing them the same way one would (could, should) a careless driver won’t accomplish anything other than to make their problems even worse. Instead, they need support (not sure what exactly) that addresses their specific needs. But if the budget only allows providing accommodation then there may be people who need to be kicked out, otherwise it is impossible to provide accommodation to the other people who need it.

Besides, losing ones home is a natural consequence not unique to the less well-off: if I started a fire in my house I wouldn’t be able to live in it for some time (until it was repaired, with my money); the difference is I wouldn’t cause other families to lose their homes as well.
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#62
(05-29-2022, 08:38 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-29-2022, 02:05 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I think the problem of people traveling is a lot smaller than some think. I'd argue a national program is definitely not needed. Transportation is difficult at best when you are homeless. Could people come here from Toronto, clearly yes. Could people come here from Ottawa? Maybe...but that's much more difficult. Could they come here from even...Manitoba, the number who could and would is negligible.

I think you underestimate the resourcefulness of people who learn of a good thing.

Also other jurisdictions would hand out bus tickets. Let’s not pretend this wouldn’t happen; there is already precedent for localities handling their homeless “problem” this way.

Was easier when there actually was an intercity bus system...
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#63
(05-29-2022, 12:02 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-29-2022, 09:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Homeless people are people, they should suffer the same consequences for their behaviour that you and I do.

That’s a nice theory, but you can’t have people setting fires in an apartment building. It’s not about punishment or whatever; it’s about how much you can reasonably ask their immediate neighbors (other formerly homeless people) to put up with.

And part of the issue is that there is no point in punishing these people. Somebody who sets a fire in a building is not thinking clearly and simply punishing them the same way one would (could, should) a careless driver won’t accomplish anything other than to make their problems even worse. Instead, they need support (not sure what exactly) that addresses their specific needs. But if the budget only allows providing accommodation then there may be people who need to be kicked out, otherwise it is impossible to provide accommodation to the other people who need it.

Besides, losing ones home is a natural consequence not unique to the less well-off: if I started a fire in my house I wouldn’t be able to live in it for some time (until it was repaired, with my money); the difference is I wouldn’t cause other families to lose their homes as well.

Obviously you cannot have someone setting fires in an apartment building. That is a crime, it should be dealt with in the criminal justice system. If that system is inadequate, that's another issue, but the point remains, the consequences should be the same any person for committing the same crime.

And of course, the point of the criminal justice system is not just punishment; rehabilitation is a key component. Of course, it's not controversial to say, the system often fails at that.

If you started a fire in your home, you would be unable to live in your home, you would be able to afford temporary accommodations to live in. Very few of us would actually be on the street.

There's an old quote I don't know who it's actually from, it goes something to the effect of: justice is blind, it is illegal for both the CEO and the homeless person to sleep under the overpass.

If you give people homes, without condition, justice becomes a little more blind.

At the end of the day, we are talking only of a very small fraction of people anyway, when the resources we have now would be spread far less thinly.
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#64
If folks are genuinely interested in learning about the Housing First model that Dan is advocating for - and which has large amounts of supporting evidence - the wikipedia page for Pathways to Housing is a good start, there's links to significant people and concepts as well as source material.

For those who like audio consumption, Sam Tsemberis (the founder of the organization) was interviewed on the Factually podcast in 2019 and really lays out all the work that he (and many others) did to get to the point where it was conceived and all the work that's been done since that time in 1992.

There's a lot of evidence.
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#65
Region of Waterloo opening inclusive emergency shelter

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/region-of-w...-1.5956878
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#66
Hopefully this helps as it removes a couple of the issues many in the encampment have with the rules are other shelters.



A new emergency shelter that will welcome all genders, couples and pets will open in Kitchener this week.

The shelter opens Friday in the former Edith MacIntosh Child Care Centre on Stirling Avenue South and will be operated by The Working Centre, providing overnight shelter for up to 60 people from 7 p.m. to 9 a.m., seven days a week.

The Region of Waterloo created the inclusive shelter in response to feedback from people who have experienced homelessness.
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#67
Article in the Record on a new encampment study.

https://archive.ph/KYuIu

Evicting Kitchener encampment ‘is the greatest harm,’ Laurier professor says after studying homeless policies in other cities
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#68
Police, bylaw won't be on site of Kitchener encampment on eviction day, region says: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.6500255

I guarantee they would not be pretending to act lenient if it were not election season.
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#69
(Yesterday, 02:31 PM)ac3r Wrote: Police, bylaw won't be on site of Kitchener encampment on eviction day, region says: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.6500255

I guarantee they would not be pretending to act lenient if it were not election season.

So in other words it’s not eviction day.

The meaning of “eviction” includes that the leaving is in some way forced. It’s not just a deadline that is set by somebody sitting in some office. It is an event in which vacant possession of a property is given to its owner, removing the existing occupants.

Now, if they said that on eviction day instead of a bunch of police they will have just a single sheriff to serve the eviction together with Regional staff to assist with figuring out where people will sleep the next night and moving their stuff, that would be meaningful: it would be an eviction, just trying to do it in a less confrontational way. But the article says police, bylaw, and Regional staff will all be elsewhere, which means it isn’t really an eviction at all.
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#70
(06-22-2022, 09:27 AM)Chris Wrote: Evicting Kitchener encampment ‘is the greatest harm,’ Laurier professor says after studying homeless policies in other cities

Yes, but. The encampment is providing some minimal level of housing for them at the moment. But, I believe, most of them would not sleep in tents once the weather drops to around zero.

We need to provide something better than just an empty lot for tents.
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