Vertikal (471-481 King St E) | 23 & 19 fl | U/C

[ac3r]

We could achieve that here but unfortunately a million contractors want to milk the developers out of money so they take their sweet ass time. Plus the union guys who get paid by the hour will figure out how to take 30 minutes just to screw in a lightbulb so that they get a big cheque.

The building is cool though, but I wouldn't trust it to last very long. The Chinese love to cut corners with everything.

[taylortbb]

Somebody should tell Drewlo about this. 
10-storey residential building in China constructed in a day

While I get the joke, it is a fair point that it's not really one day because of all the factory time.

That said, I really do think the way we build is clearly antiquated. It's no wonder construction is so expensive when every item is a custom on-site production. If you tried to build cars that way they'd also be beyond the means of most people. Someday someone will figure out a business model that works for standardized prefabricated major building components.

[jeffster]

Somebody should tell Drewlo about this. 
10-storey residential building in China constructed in a day

While I get the joke, it is a fair point that it's not really one day because of all the factory time.

That said, I really do think the way we build is clearly antiquated. It's no wonder construction is so expensive when every item is a custom on-site production. If you tried to build cars that way they'd also be beyond the means of most people. Someday someone will figure out a business model that works for standardized prefabricated major building components.

We could replicate here -- if we wanted to. Imagine have large factories in many of Canada's largest cities manufacturing these pieces, then closing a couple roads for the day as you transport everything, then a day later, presto, and Bob's your uncle, here is a 10-floor, 20-floor apartment or whatever.

Earthquake and typhoon proof, that's all you need to know about its quality.

We can do it here. But laws and regulations need to change. I would be great if we did this to create affordable housing. Something like this would go a long way - if people working their jobs could have a place to lay their heads a nice, perhaps with a SO and maybe a kid or do, rather than be depressed and self-medicate and then end up homeless.

[dtkvictim]

Somebody should tell Drewlo about this. 
10-storey residential building in China constructed in a day

While I get the joke, it is a fair point that it's not really one day because of all the factory time.

That said, I really do think the way we build is clearly antiquated. It's no wonder construction is so expensive when every item is a custom on-site production. If you tried to build cars that way they'd also be beyond the means of most people. Someday someone will figure out a business model that works for standardized prefabricated major building components.

I don't think the disconnect here is in the construction industry (or at least not exclusively). Suburban developers like Mattamy, while not prefab, take a repeatable factory like approach and build a ton of housing fast.

The problem is that applying this approach the denser forms of housing causes political issues. You need, what, probably at least 10+ mid- to high-rise buildings to have efficiency gains? Good luck finding approval to build that many nearly identical buildings back-to-back or in parallel. Whereas getting approval for hundreds of suburban houses at once hasn't historically been an issue.

[ac3r]

A big issue with prefab as you see in that video is...it is utter garbage. When I was a young intern architect I worked for a firm that loved that stuff (this was over in Austria). Problem was that we could all tell it was junk but the owner loved it. A few projects were done with it and it didn't take long for it to start having problems.

Our inability to build stuff in a fast manner has very little to do with the construction methods and more to do with how businesses operate. The economic system in which we operate isn't very efficient. We are very capable of fast projects here, but we lack the will to do it these days. Further relying on the mechanisms of capitalism - having lots of parts of a building manufactured off site, shipped and then assembled - only adds to the unnecessary complexity.

[ijmorlan]

Here is something that could be pre-fabricated: bathrooms. Standard apartment bathrooms in non-luxury accommodation are not architecturally interesting, often don’t even have windows, and are already mostly in a small number of meaningfully-different plans. It should be possible to create a small number of plans (powder room, full bathroom, maybe a couple of variations including one that includes space for laundry appliances) and churn out the entire room as a unit which is just lowered into place during construction. The trick is that in order to actually be worthwhile the savings would have to be entirely in construction efficiency, not in how they’re built — the actual toilets, for example, should be normal toilets that can be replaced later in the same way that a toilet in a non-prefab bathroom would be replaced. Otherwise this would just create a maintenance and repair nightmare later.

Bathrooms are small enough that a truck could bring enough for several apartments. Instead of having to bring in plumbers, electricians, painters, tile specialists, trim and maybe others, only some of them would be needed in order to do the hookups.

[Acitta]

A big issue with prefab as you see in that video is...it is utter garbage. When I was a young intern architect I worked for a firm that loved that stuff (this was over in Austria). Problem was that we could all tell it was junk but the owner loved it. A few projects were done with it and it didn't take long for it to start having problems.

Our inability to build stuff in a fast manner has very little to do with the construction methods and more to do with how businesses operate. The economic system in which we operate isn't very efficient. We are very capable of fast projects here, but we lack the will to do it these days. Further relying on the mechanisms of capitalism - having lots of parts of a building manufactured off site, shipped and then assembled - only adds to the unnecessary complexity.

Does it have to be garbage, or can it be quality construction? Plenty of buildings built the old-fashioned way turn out to be garbage also.

[tomh009]

In fact, a factory with decent QC would probably produce better work than a random subtrade.

[bravado]

And a factory has process engineers who improve their efficiency over time. A modern construction site in NA is barely distinguishable between the 80s and today. There’s been no gains in efficiency over time, unlike every other industry.

[ac3r]

Does it have to be garbage, or can it be quality construction? Plenty of buildings built the old-fashioned way turn out to be garbage also.

Sure, you can build better prefabricated products but then the cost goes up due to the complexities in the manufacturing and installation. You'd have to find a way to somehow produce entire prefabricated buildings off site in numerous factories, ship them to a building site, have them installed in a cost efficient manner and so on. That would have to be cheaper and easier than just old school construction where you hire a bunch of guys, dig a hole, place rebar, pour concrete and repeat. In some cases, it's cheaper to do. Or it can be more logical to use...if you're trying to build some structures on say a remote reserve in Northern Ontario where you have logistical issues with staff or transportation of raw materials for the building (rebar, beams, concrete, glass etc) then yeah it's sensible to ship a precast building up there, have a crew put it together and you're done and it'll last...a while. But I wouldn't use the stuff for something that is intended to be long term in a major city. Re: the video...China loves the stuff because they're all about quantity and efficiently, not quality. They don't care if the thing literally collapses floor by floor in a year, so long as it gets built when they want it.

There's also precast - which is different. It has its uses in some applications and I think it's great for mass producing residential buildings. You can throw up a building using precast panels in a short time. Problem is...it tends to get used because it's cheaper. Meaning, the building is likely going to look like shit. Take a company like Stubbes Precast whose products are used all over the region: https://www.stubbes.org/total-precast-overview

I'd look at it this way using furniture as a comparison. Do you want to have quality - a good hardwood dresser that is going to last you literally centuries? Go buy something from the Mennonites or whoever makes nice wood furniture. Do you want to buy a dresser right now and have it in your bedroom full of clothes today? Drive to Ikea. The differences will be clear, though. One is going to be hardwood and one is going to be the cheapest, mass produced particleboard and glue garbage on the planet. One is going to be more durable and last you a lifetime and it sure isn't the trash that is mass produced in China aka Ikea products.

It really comes down to what you expect and what you are willing to pay for. There's no reason we can't build quality buildings in an efficient way - we used to do it no problem, just look at the skyscrapers we put up all over this continent nearly 100 years ago. They're beautiful buildings and will last as long as the pyramids in Egypt have. But those invested in development these days don't really care about the longevity and quality of the product. That's why so many developers go with precast junk these days. So entirely prefab buildings are likely going to be much worse because it's still quite costly to build them with quality in mind.

[ijmorlan]

I'd look at it this way using furniture as a comparison. Do you want to have quality - a good hardwood dresser that is going to last you literally centuries? Go buy something from the Mennonites or whoever makes nice wood furniture. Do you want to buy a dresser right now and have it in your bedroom full of clothes today? Drive to Ikea. The differences will be clear, though. One is going to be hardwood and one is going to be the cheapest, mass produced particleboard and glue garbage on the planet. One is going to be more durable and last you a lifetime and it sure isn't the trash that is mass produced in China aka Ikea products.

Actually, a lot of Ikea furniture is made of solid wood. I have a kitchen table which is all wood. The individual planks which have been laminated together are nowhere near as big as in an old-school table, but it’s still a solid piece of furniture which will last and might be worth refinishing when needed.

I’m not sure this actually affects your point, but need to correct the facts on Ikea. Not employed by them, just like some of their stuff.

[dtkvictim]

It really comes down to what you expect and what you are willing to pay for. There's no reason we can't build quality buildings in an efficient way - we used to do it no problem, just look at the skyscrapers we put up all over this continent nearly 100 years ago. They're beautiful buildings and will last as long as the pyramids in Egypt have. But those invested in development these days don't really care about the longevity and quality of the product. That's why so many developers go with precast junk these days. So entirely prefab buildings are likely going to be much worse because it's still quite costly to build them with quality in mind.

Used to do it no problem? We, as humans, built many great things fairly efficiently using slave labour. This continent's century old skyscrapers were built with a complete lack of health and safety regulations, where deaths were common and expected. Are you suggesting we roll back to these times, with your digs at union workers? These skyscrapers and other beautiful, quality buildings are fairly irrelevant anyways, since they were never built to house the masses, but were for the elite and upper classes. The housing for the masses were historically awful and haven't survived, and buildings for the wealthy are not emblematic of the way "things used to be".

I don't completely disagree with the points here, but it's not so black and white.

[tomh009]

Actually, a lot of Ikea furniture is made of solid wood. I have a kitchen table which is all wood. The individual planks which have been laminated together are nowhere near as big as in an old-school table, but it’s still a solid piece of furniture which will last and might be worth refinishing when needed.

I’m not sure this actually affects your point, but need to correct the facts on Ikea. Not employed by them, just like some of their stuff.

As with any other vendor, check understand what you are buying before you buy, you can buy cheap furniture (or clothes etc) anywhere. But Ivar shelving is solid wood and lasts more or less forever. Even the Billy bookcases (which are indeed particleboard) are well made; I have two that date back over 20 years and they still look and work fine.

[clasher]

Jobs sites today look and are way different than they were in the 1980s. Mobile elevated work platforms and telescoping forklifts have completely changed the look of a modern site. Battery powered tools are changing a lot of the stuff on a smaller scale too.

[tomh009]

Does it have to be garbage, or can it be quality construction? Plenty of buildings built the old-fashioned way turn out to be garbage also.

Sure, you can build better prefabricated products but then the cost goes up due to the complexities in the manufacturing and installation. You'd have to find a way to somehow produce entire prefabricated buildings off site in numerous factories, ship them to a building site, have them installed in a cost efficient manner and so on. (...)

There is no reason why an entire building would need to be prefabricated. Instead, a builder should be able to purchase some standardized core modules (as one would do when building electronics or developing software) and then customize the rest in order to meet the specific requirements. To an extent, this is already done with things like elevators or HVAC systems which are not custom-built on site. As someone suggested earlier, this could be extended to things such as washrooms.

And Stubbe builds pre-cast concrete panels to customer specifications. They don't particularly make "crap" as such, they make what the builder specs for the building. The panels they provided for Civic 66, for example, look magnificent compared to ones that DTK Condos asked Stubbe to make. Stubbe is not the problem here, and could even be part of a solution.