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Trailside Towns at Grey Silo | Complete
#16
(12-12-2021, 12:28 AM)taylortbb Wrote:
(12-11-2021, 11:49 PM)jeffster Wrote: But I don't think there are other good solutions for cooling down units when it's hot and humid outside.

Central chillers, or water-source heat pumps, are used in newer condo buildings. There's no need for each unit to have individual AC, unless you're trying to minimize common expenses.

Water-source heat pumps are a decent middle ground though, as the compressor is in-unit and connected to that unit's electricity. Central chillers/boilers with a 4-pipe system (e.g. Charlie West) results in each unit only paying for the fan for the fan coil unit, so heat/AC is basically completely covered by condo fees.

I can see in an apartment though why you might want to push as much cost as possible onto the unit's electricity bill, so you can advertise lower rents.

I have a friend that lives in an older condo-apartment that includes water (and hot water) as part of their condo fees, but damned they do pay a lot for that with condo fees. Lots of owners have no issue running the water and long hot showers since 'it's free' when really it isn't.
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#17
(12-12-2021, 12:28 AM)taylortbb Wrote:
(12-11-2021, 11:49 PM)jeffster Wrote: But I don't think there are other good solutions for cooling down units when it's hot and humid outside.

Water-source heat pumps are a decent middle ground though, as the compressor is in-unit and connected to that unit's electricity. Central chillers/boilers with a 4-pipe system (e.g. Charlie West) results in each unit only paying for the fan for the fan coil unit, so heat/AC is basically completely covered by condo fees.

The same is true for the two-pipe system: the air handler pushes the air over the cooling/heating elements (cooling or heating for those is provided centrally). The difference is that a two-pipe system can only provide either heating or cooling at any one time, not both: the building needs to switch between the two modes each spring and fall (each switchover takes a few days at a minimum).
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#18
(12-27-2021, 04:18 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(12-12-2021, 12:28 AM)taylortbb Wrote: Water-source heat pumps are a decent middle ground though, as the compressor is in-unit and connected to that unit's electricity. Central chillers/boilers with a 4-pipe system (e.g. Charlie West) results in each unit only paying for the fan for the fan coil unit, so heat/AC is basically completely covered by condo fees.

The same is true for the two-pipe system: the air handler pushes the air over the cooling/heating elements (cooling or heating for those is provided centrally). The difference is that a two-pipe system can only provide either heating or cooling at any one time, not both: the building needs to switch between the two modes each spring and fall (each switchover takes a few days at a minimum).

Wow...you learn something new every day.

When I went to Cameron Heights and when we had weather changes (usually early spring heat or late summer/fall heat) the maintenance staff always used the excuse "we can't change back to 'summer cooling' because it takes days for the changeover, and it might be cold again by then". I think the changeover occurred May 1 and October 15. I never understood it, and thought they were full of it.

Appears they were telling the truth.
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#19
They were indeed telling the truth. And it takes a few days because they need to let the system cool down (or warm up) to avoid problems.

A four-pipe system avoids this issue but is presumably substantially more expensive to implement. Both our condo building and the office building (where my office is located) use the two-pipe system.
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#20
(12-27-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote: They were indeed telling the truth. And it takes a few days because they need to let the system cool down (or warm up) to avoid problems.

A four-pipe system avoids this issue but is presumably substantially more expensive to implement. Both our condo building and the office building (where my office is located) use the two-pipe system.

A bit off topic, but with newer technology it's possible to have a 2-pipe system switch to heating over night and cooling during the day. Here's an article on a school retrofit: Two-Pipe HVAC Makes a Comeback:  An Idea Discarded Decades Ago May Be the Future of School Heating and Cooling.

"Changeover can be accomplished with very little loss of energy in 20 minutes with no human intervention whatever."
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#21
(12-27-2021, 04:18 PM)tomh009 Wrote: The same is true for the two-pipe system: the air handler pushes the air over the cooling/heating elements (cooling or heating for those is provided centrally). The difference is that a two-pipe system can only provide either heating or cooling at any one time, not both: the building needs to switch between the two modes each spring and fall (each switchover takes a few days at a minimum).

This is true for 2 pipe systems without a heat pump, but those are almost never installed in new residential construction these days. If you only want to do two pipes then water-source heat pump gives residents the individual control that's expected.
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#22
(12-28-2021, 01:58 AM)taylortbb Wrote:
(12-27-2021, 04:18 PM)tomh009 Wrote: The same is true for the two-pipe system: the air handler pushes the air over the cooling/heating elements (cooling or heating for those is provided centrally). The difference is that a two-pipe system can only provide either heating or cooling at any one time, not both: the building needs to switch between the two modes each spring and fall (each switchover takes a few days at a minimum).

This is true for 2 pipe systems without a heat pump, but those are almost never installed in new residential construction these days. If you only want to do two pipes then water-source heat pump gives residents the individual control that's expected.

A heat pump will use either refrigerant or water depending on the mode. And it uses a compressor to achieve its heat-pumping effect (an air handler is essentially just a fan). I don't quite see how adding a heat pump system into each unit would enable the resident to extract heat from a currently-circulating refrigerant (in a two-pipe system) or cooling from currently-circulating hot water.

A balcony-based heat pump will do that, of course, but that is completely different from a system that heats or cools the entire building.
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#23
(12-28-2021, 04:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I don't quite see how adding a heat pump system into each unit would enable the resident to extract heat from a currently-circulating refrigerant (in a two-pipe system) or cooling from currently-circulating hot water.

Take a look at https://www.climatemaster.com/commercial...plications . The systems work just like a normal heat pump/AC system with an outside air heat exchanger, except that it takes/rejects heat from/to a building water loop, which is kept at a more neutral temperature. They're quite common in new buildings, for example 100 Victoria.

There is still a central boiler/chiller to keep the water loop within the temp range, so it's not as totally independent as having units on the balcony.
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#24
(12-28-2021, 07:46 PM)taylortbb Wrote:
(12-28-2021, 04:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I don't quite see how adding a heat pump system into each unit would enable the resident to extract heat from a currently-circulating refrigerant (in a two-pipe system) or cooling from currently-circulating hot water.

Take a look at https://www.climatemaster.com/commercial...plications . The systems work just like a normal heat pump/AC system with an outside air heat exchanger, except that it takes/rejects heat from/to a building water loop, which is kept at a more neutral temperature. They're quite common in new buildings, for example 100 Victoria.

There is still a central boiler/chiller to keep the water loop within the temp range, so it's not as totally independent as having units on the balcony.

OK, I see that now. More flexible than a conventional two-pipe system, although the in-unit heat pumps will be more expensive than conventional air handlers. Shoulder-season operation will be less expensive.

So, you are saying that almost all new multi-residential construction in Canada is using water-source heat pumps now?
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#25
(12-28-2021, 08:34 PM)tomh009 Wrote: So, you are saying that almost all new multi-residential construction in Canada is using water-source heat pumps now?

No. I would say almost all new builds have individually controllable heating vs cooling. Some are WSHP, some are 4 pipe, some are air-based heat pump, some may be other technologies I'm not familiar with. But 2 pipe systems with fan coil units are effectively eliminated from new residential construction.
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#26
(12-28-2021, 09:29 PM)taylortbb Wrote:
(12-28-2021, 08:34 PM)tomh009 Wrote: So, you are saying that almost all new multi-residential construction in Canada is using water-source heat pumps now?

No. I would say almost all new builds have individually controllable heating vs cooling. Some are WSHP, some are 4 pipe, some are air-based heat pump, some may be other technologies I'm not familiar with. But 2 pipe systems with fan coil units are effectively eliminated from new residential construction.

When did two-pipe systems stop being used in new construction?
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#27
(12-28-2021, 09:42 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(12-28-2021, 09:29 PM)taylortbb Wrote: No. I would say almost all new builds have individually controllable heating vs cooling. Some are WSHP, some are 4 pipe, some are air-based heat pump, some may be other technologies I'm not familiar with. But 2 pipe systems with fan coil units are effectively eliminated from new residential construction.

When did two-pipe systems stop being used in new construction?

I don't know. I had a conversation about building mechanical systems with someone from Momentum, and they were quite certain that they were gone.

Even my 1999 built Drewlo building wasn't like that, so I think it's been a while. It has a two pipe heat system, but an AC unit on the balcony. So cooling is available year round, though the central boiler was shutoff when outside temps passed 20. But each unit transitions from heating to cooling when they chose to.
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#28
The balcony-based systems are a different kettle of fish, though. 100+ individual AC units to install and maintain -- but it allows you to move the AC operating costs to the individual tenants, making these solutions attractive primarily to rental buildings.
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#29
(12-29-2021, 11:02 AM)tomh009 Wrote: The balcony-based systems are a different kettle of fish, though. 100+ individual AC units to install and maintain -- but it allows you to move the AC operating costs to the individual tenants, making these solutions attractive primarily to rental buildings.

Seems to me it’s attractive for condos as well. Even though the occupants collectively own the building, there is still a significant divergence of interest between the condo corporation and the individual owners.

I don’t know how much repair is done, but one convenient aspect of individual units is that it seems to me any problem can be solved by replacing the whole unit, and this is probably an afternoon job. So the overall disruption to the building is much less.
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#30
(12-29-2021, 11:05 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(12-29-2021, 11:02 AM)tomh009 Wrote: The balcony-based systems are a different kettle of fish, though. 100+ individual AC units to install and maintain -- but it allows you to move the AC operating costs to the individual tenants, making these solutions attractive primarily to rental buildings.

Seems to me it’s attractive for condos as well. Even though the occupants collectively own the building, there is still a significant divergence of interest between the condo corporation and the individual owners.

I don’t know how much repair is done, but one convenient aspect of individual units is that it seems to me any problem can be solved by replacing the whole unit, and this is probably an afternoon job. So the overall disruption to the building is much less.

Having to shut down entire building HVAC is exceedingly rare assuming the system is properly maintained. And that's regardless of the number of pipes in the system.

The condo corporation is just the collective group of owners. Smile
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