Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[jamincan]

1 I didn’t say it wasn’t. This is literally an opinion forum, and the article we are commenting on is an opinion piece.  But are you really going to tell me an arena is more important than housing in our city right now? If so, you can tell that to the thousand people now homeless on our streets.  Or are you going to argue that after all the other cities fail to break even building arenas somehow we magically will?

I'm not convinced an arena is the right use of the location, but I do know that large blocks of city-owned land in prime locations are not going to come up every day. I think it would be a pretty huge failure of our imagination to just build housing in service of the immediate housing crisis and not look forward to anticipate future needs or opportunities. Why reserve land at King and Victoria for a transit centre at some point in the future when there is a perfectly functional and historic train station just 10 minutes walk away? Build more housing instead!

2 An arena can host other things, but go see how often similar arenas in similar cities are used. Most nights they are empty. In London, in Kingston. 

What about Copps Coliseum? Centre Videotron? MTS Centre? I never really got the impression that the John Labatt Centre (or whatever they call it now) was a failure either, is there more information on that?

3 this too is your opinion. You’re welcome to hold it. You can not disparage me at the same time. I’m looking at the reality in our city. 80% of our population cannot conceive of going somewhere without a car. That’s simply the reality here. 

His comment wasn't a personal attack. Accusing him of that doesn't further the discussion.

We are building our city for the future we want, not the present. If that weren't the case, we would be building more expressways, roads, and subdivisions.

As for its current location it is a 10 minute walk from an LRT station and on that walk you will pass at least two restaurants. I think you don’t know the area it’s located in well.  More, if an arena was so good for local businesses and development, would t it have attracted more businesses to the area?

Yes, the current area is huge and has tons of surface parking, it’s just another reason the terminal isn’t a good location, it isn’t a big enough site to host the facilities we currently have.

The current location has excellent access by car. It has terrible access by transit. There are no two ways about it. I'm not sure of it's current status but for a number of years the Rangers actually ran a bus shuttle from various restaurants and DTK on game days to address the shortcomings of transit-service and local restaurant offerings.

I'm not sure if an arena is the best choice, but I would be disappointed if the location shifted from public land to private/semi-private land. That is a shift that is not easy to reverse and has ramifications far into the future and we have to be able to do better than just a bunch more housing.

It does seem to me that the region has very little good event spaces. There are few good spaces for conventions, for example, and those that exist are small and poorly located for longer/larger events. Our hotels are spread through the region further exacerbating that issue. Sports venues are inadequate for hosting competitions - for example, the Waterloo Rec Centre could have had an Olympic-sized pool, but they chose to build a play structure on one end instead, and now the pool is far less functional than it could have been.

We are a mid-sized city, but we are growing and as our importance and stature increases, we should be able to plan for more than just being a backwater on the edge of the GTA.

[ac3r]

As for its current location it is a 10 minute walk from an LRT station and on that walk you will pass at least two restaurants. I think you don’t know the area it’s located in well.  More, if an arena was so good for local businesses and development, would t it have attracted more businesses to the area?

It's worth noting that they want to densify around Borden Station and down Ottawa street, so that should hopefully improve the retail/restaurant scene in this area which would be good if they preserved the current stadium. This entire area falls within the Rockway PARTS plan which is aiming to densify this area, so as the years go on, we will certainly see a lot more projects. Zehr Group has a project proposed for 20 Ottawa Street (about 5 minutes away on foot) which includes some commercial space which I am sure can be used for restaurants. Vive also has 926 King Street East approved already, which includes commercial space as well as Lower Kitchener proposed, although I can't remember if that had any commercial space included. There are also many other existing restaurant spaces in the area.

Everybody seems to be making the case that turning Charles Street into a new stadium is good because it's connected to the LRT etc. So is the current The Aud location. If a 10 minute walk from Borden to The Aud is too far, then something is wrong with people - you don't need to be dropped off at the door. The number 2 and 8 bus also travel nearby and the 1 gets you fairly close as well. If the goal is to get people to abandon their cars, then the current site is still sufficiently connected to the LRT and buses. It also has direct access to the Conestoga Expressway. They could easily get rid of the awful surface parking, build a garage to densify the vehicle parking, then use that space to expand the grounds with even more community features - which could include community spaces, retail, residential and so on.

Ultimately...if you look at the size of The Aud compared to Charles Street, the latter is tiny. So how would this work for a stadium? You couldn't fit 1/4th of the existing stadium on the Charles Street location. So what is the plan? To build a smaller stadium downtown, just because downtown stadiums work in some cities - Baltimore, Denver, Minneapolis etc? The purpose of a stadium is to provide a space for the public, not to act as an economic catalyst in the area it exists in (although indeed, achieving both is ideal). It makes more sense to preserve the existing one - which already includes the stadium itself, a dog park, skate park, baseball field (two, if you include the one on the adjacent school grounds), track field and then build a parking garage and utilize the surface lots for even more venues. Turn the entire area into a grand recreational space to be used by everyone and let the evolution of Ottawa Street happen, which should see more commercial and residential spaces go in.

[the_conestoga_guy]

As for its current location it is a 10 minute walk from an LRT station and on that walk you will pass at least two restaurants. I think you don’t know the area it’s located in well.  More, if an arena was so good for local businesses and development, would t it have attracted more businesses to the area?

It's worth noting that they want to densify around Borden Station and down Ottawa street, so that should hopefully improve the retail/restaurant scene in this area which would be good if they preserved the current stadium. This entire area falls within the Rockway PARTS plan which is aiming to densify this area, so as the years go on, we will certainly see a lot more projects. Zehr Group has a project proposed for 20 Ottawa Street (about 5 minutes away on foot) which includes some commercial space which I am sure can be used for restaurants. Vive also has 926 King Street East approved already, which includes commercial space as well as Lower Kitchener proposed, although I can't remember if that had any commercial space included. There are also many other existing restaurant spaces in the area.

Everybody seems to be making the case that turning Charles Street into a new stadium is good because it's connected to the LRT etc. So is the current The Aud location. If a 10 minute walk from Borden to The Aud is too far, then something is wrong with people - you don't need to be dropped off at the door. The number 2 and 8 bus also travel nearby and the 1 gets you fairly close as well. If the goal is to get people to abandon their cars, then the current site is still sufficiently connected to the LRT and buses. It also has direct access to the Conestoga Expressway. They could easily get rid of the awful surface parking, build a garage to densify the vehicle parking, then use that space to expand the grounds with even more community features - which could include community spaces, retail, residential and so on.

Ultimately...if you look at the size of The Aud compared to Charles Street, the latter is tiny. So how would this work for a stadium? You couldn't fit 1/4th of the existing stadium on the Charles Street location. So what is the plan? To build a smaller stadium downtown, just because downtown stadiums work in some cities - Baltimore, Denver, Minneapolis etc? The purpose of a stadium is to provide a space for the public, not to act as an economic catalyst in the area it exists in (although indeed, achieving both is ideal). It makes more sense to preserve the existing one - which already includes the stadium itself, a dog park, skate park, baseball field (two, if you include the one on the adjacent school grounds), track field and then build a parking garage and utilize the surface lots for even more venues. Turn the entire area into a grand recreational space to be used by everyone and let the evolution of Ottawa Street happen, which should see more commercial and residential spaces go in.

I think that this is the best argument against moving the Aud from its current location - it can act as an economic catalyst for a different part of the city than downtown. It would be great to plan a arena/stadium district through the the lens of modern planning philosophies. 

Regretfully, I do think it’s ignorant to pretend that “2 bus connections and a 10 minute walk from an LRT station” qualifies as being “well connected” to transit, BUT I also think that building a new venue in this area would motivate the city to better connect the area to transit. As it exists now, there are poor transit options for anyone experiencing slight physical mobility issues - I don’t think people in their late 60’s want to walk 10 minutes along unshovelled icy sidewalks when they could just drive instead. 

As I understand it, phase 3 of the ION is tentatively planned to provide an East/West connection along Victoria. But perhaps if a new arena were to be constructed on the existing land, then the Region would value the area enough to potentially re-draw the future LRT to include it? As others have mentioned, we’re planning for the city of the future, not the present. And I do enjoy these pie-in-the-sky discussions 😀

[the_conestoga_guy]

Back to the topic at hand - what to do about the bus terminal land - here’s an additional detail for your consideration. I’ve chatted with the owners of the Hasty Market next door, who have said that the owner of their building is intending to sell their property once all of their tenants leases expire. 

The Hasty Market owners have already invested in their new location, so don’t worry about them. But discussion about what to do with this land could also include this property.

[jeffster]

If Kitchener had any half decent sports teams it might be worthwhile. But Junior B hockey? Ugh. This isn't the Bridgestone Arena and Kitchener isn't Nashville.

Junior "A". These kids go from there to NHL. Lots of alumni that make the jump, including the coaching staff (Las Vegas Knights).

[jeffster]

Finally, the KW Titans exist and play at the Aud. I don't know much about them, but I'm sure they'd be upset not to be included in this conversation!

Yeah, the Titans are the only professional team in Kitchener. But they need to market the team better.

[jeffster]

Regarding our arena. Some of you might recall, if only when reading historic documents, that The Aud was quite the place years back, with a lot of big acts coming to Kitchener to play. The primary reason for this was simple: beside Toronto, no cities in Southern Ontario had a decent arena/stadium for hosting these type of events. Once Hamilton and eventually London built larger venues, Kitchener lost a lot of the acts. Geographically, I doubt we'd get a lot back if we built something better. And certainly not what some would hope for. Too much competition.

[Marko]

Another long-time lurker, first-time poster. I've been in Kitchener all my life, living in downtown Kitchener for the last 15 years. Selfishly, expanding Victoria Park is my favourite option because it gives the city a rare opportunity to invest in the quality of city living itself. For walking, running, cycling routes, festivals, etc it expands the options for living downtown. You also gain the benefit of directly connecting Victoria Park to King Street/City Hall, which could lead to some very interesting pedestrian-only use cases in the future, and making it more attractive for park visitors to engage with downtown businesses.

I'm not sure if I attached an image correctly here, and I'm not an urban planner or architect, but to me creating a sense of place is important. Downtown needs to be a place people are in 24/7, not just during special events. I tried to achieve that in the map view.

   

• You could fit 2 Pharmacy School shaped buildings around the borders – this would allow for residential construction and hopefully create some affordable housing and some more family-oriented buildings. You could also fit 2 Charlie Wests for denser residential but the street interaction isn't as great with the square podium vs rectangle.
  
• As part of the land sale, the city could require publicly available parking in both building podiums – allowing the removal of the surface lot.
  
• Retail or community space could be in the podium along both sides of the building, creating engaging streets but also creating indoor environments to make the park more attractive for non-Covid winter hangouts.
  
• You would have a new park area that's ~75% of the area that's currently used for events like Ribfest or the Multicultural Festival, so these events could grow and be closer the downtown core – hopefully creating spillover business to downtown retail. 
  

Personally, I'm also in favour of moving the Aud or building some kind of multi-purpose event centre with residential on top. I live by the Market, the walking experience to go to the Aud is abysmal unless you go entirely through the residential neighbourhoods to East Ave.

Yes, there is the LRT, but the walking experience on Ottawa Street is terrible. Maybe with 10+ years of redevelopment it will be more appealing, but today, to walk from the LRT stop to the Aud you need to walk through a Tim Horton's parking lot up a hill. You have to use narrow sidewalks on a busy, arterial road – passing by a bunch of closed storefronts, a few empty lots (that are being redeveloped), an abandoned car dealership, a large plaza that's mostly a parking lot that's not great at night, and through another busy weirdly shaped intersection where drivers don't stop at the red light before turning right. The other side of the street is two churches and a bowling alley, far apart, and not really interactive in the evening. I have no issue walking through the downtown core by myself at night, but I would not feel comfortable with this route at night. Contrast this with Charles Street, and the LRT is either at the doors, or a short walk down a main street with residential towers and retail on either side. If you lived in the suburbs, and your option was to park at either mall or Blockline and take the LRT or drive, which transit + walking option is going to give you fewer excuses to take transit?

The city lacks evening draws – where is the live music? where are the concerts? where are the art shows? conferences? You can drive to Maxwell's (suburban), walk to Center in the Square (vaguely downtown but far enough its its own destination), and drive to Bingemans? The Tannery can only host events for up to 200 people. To make the city liveable we need this kind of stuff in the city, not 3km from where the majority of new downtown residential is being built. If I'm dreaming, something to help create more culture in downtown is what I'd want as an outcome of this space.

[dtkvictim]

Back to the topic at hand - what to do about the bus terminal land - here’s an additional detail for your consideration. I’ve chatted with the owners of the Hasty Market next door, who have said that the owner of their building is intending to sell their property once all of their tenants leases expire. 

The Hasty Market owners have already invested in their new location, so don’t worry about them. But discussion about what to do with this land could also include this property.

Do you happen to know where they are going?

[dtkvictim]

And while I don't agree with danbrotherston much, NIMBYism is kinda valid here. Who wants to live in a condo or historic, low rise heritage neighbourhood next to a loud and busy stadium/auditorium? Or deal with increased car traffic downtown? Not everyone wants to take the bus or LRT. We just spent all this money on narrowing streets for better bike infrastructure as well, particularly the streets right next to this location. Or, who wants to disrupt Victoria Park - which is normally a serene, relaxing place with lakes, wildlife and space for calming recreation?

So is it loud and busy, or barely used and sitting empty? I personally live right next to this, and would be happy to have an arena/event venue. I wouldn't welcome the extra traffic, but having a venue with events and sports right next to me would be a worthwhile tradeoff. That said, I don't think it's the right place for an Aud replacement, nor is it the best use of the land. I just don't think your argument makes sense as an actual neighbour to this property.

I, like some others here, would prefer this to become an extension of the park. We have a dearth of greenspace in this city (most cities do), and should take every opportunity to grow it. I would also like this publicly owned property to stay in service of the public - so if not greenspace, something community oriented would be my next preferred option.

[tomh009]

Speaking of NIMBYs, the typical argument I'm most sympathetic to is regarding sightlines and privacy. If I building like this goes up, I'll be choosing between moving or never seeing the sun in my home again. I just want to live in a 3-5 story neighbourhood, friends.

The reality is that this is the core of the core: these are the blocks where there is bound to be the highest density and the tallest buildings. It's great for some, no fun for other people. But if you do want to live in a mid-rise neighbourhood, I expect that (in the longer run) it will need to be a bit further from the core.

[tomh009]

I, like some others here, would prefer this to become an extension of the park. We have a dearth of greenspace in this city (most cities do), and should take every opportunity to grow it. I would also like this publicly owned property to stay in service of the public - so if not greenspace, something community oriented would be my next preferred option.

I agree that it would be nice to extends the park to Gaukel-plus. But I would tend to steer away from dedicating the entire property to parkland. Victoria Park is still sizeable, and can be extended (for much less money) near West Ave. Buying this property would likely cost the city somewhere between $30M and $50M at market prices. Take the $5M from selling the city parking lot and extend the park in the other direction instead.

[ac3r]

So is it loud and busy, or barely used and sitting empty?

I'm speaking specifically of a stadium downtown, not The Aud. The Aud is quite far away from homes so it doesn't have much of an impact on the neighbourhood. Anything built on Charles Street would generate quite a lot of noise levels, from pedestrians, traffic, the events indoors (music, cheering etc). When we design buildings in architecture, we study noise impacts. Stadiums in urban areas have a significant noise level. Cities are already very loud places - often well above what is considered medically tolerable for human beings and wildlife - and adding a stadium and all the increased "busyness" that comes with it increases decibel levels.

[panamaniac]

I’m confused. I would have thought that crowds, traffic, and events would be three of the things that WRC would want to see in DTK. Personally, I wouldn’t see this as the best site for a new arena, but the idea of monetizing the Aud site to pay for the 10 - 12,000 seat arena that Kitchener should have seems to be an idea worth exploring.

[tomh009]

I’m confused.  I would have thought that crowds, traffic, and events would be three of the things that WRC would want to see in DTK.  Personally, I wouldn’t see this as the best site for a new arena, but the idea of monetizing the Aud site to pay for the 10 - 12,000 seat arena that Kitchener should have seems to be an idea worth exploring.

The retired planner threw out a number of $150M as the cost of a new arena. Is that enough to cover the cost (maybe up to $50M) of buying the land from the region?