The COVID-19 pandemic

[tomh009]

Second part of that, how does one know if one has been vaccinated? Like, are people going to start asking? Just saying that that is a personal question. Sort of like how you wouldn’t go up to someone asking when the last time they had sex with their spouse or SO.

Among my work colleagues, this is frequently asked -- and answered. Family and friends, too.

And, no, they don't usually discuss their sex lives at work, at least not that I know of.

[ijmorlan]

Half of vaccinated Canadians say they’re ‘unlikely’ to spend time around those who remain unvaccinated: https://angusreid.org/covid-vaccine-passport-july-2021/

Which is interesting, because if the vaccine works like they claim, one shouldn’t have to worry about getting sick (or at least, ‘really sick’).

Factually incorrect. The vaccine is advertised by its manufacturers and the medical community as reducing transmission and dramatically reducing the worst outcomes (severe illness and death). Nobody is advertising it as a 100% barrier against disease.

So in fact what is true is that if the vaccine worked the way you claim they claim it does, which it does not and they do not, then it would be true that one doesn’t have to worry about getting sick. But here in the real world, immunity is not really an individual property but rather a property of the entire population. I recommend the real world. Sometimes it’s not as nice as fantasy land, but it has the advantage of actually existing.

Second part of that, how does one know if one has been vaccinated? Like, are people going to start asking? Just saying that that is a personal question. Sort of like how you wouldn’t go up to someone asking when the last time they had sex with their spouse or SO.

It’s not the slightest bit weird to confirm that people with whom one is considering interaction have taken appropriate safety measures. What is weird is getting offended by the question. The difference here is that there is a significant contingent of people who hold incorrect beliefs regarding the efficacy of the safety measure in question and who make bad decisions based on that; and on top of that the hazard is contagious, making everybody’s compliance a matter of personal interest to everybody else.

Finally, is it too much to ask that members of this forum not channel that idiot of idiots, Tucker Carlson?

[Bjays93]

Which is interesting, because if the vaccine works like they claim, one shouldn’t have to worry about getting sick (or at least, ‘really sick’).

Factually incorrect. The vaccine is advertised by its manufacturers and the medical community as reducing transmission and dramatically reducing the worst outcomes (severe illness and death). Nobody is advertising it as a 100% barrier against disease.

So in fact what is true is that if the vaccine worked the way you claim they claim it does, which it does not and they do not, then it would be true that one doesn’t have to worry about getting sick. But here in the real world, immunity is not really an individual property but rather a property of the entire population. I recommend the real world. Sometimes it’s not as nice as fantasy land, but it has the advantage of actually existing.

Second part of that, how does one know if one has been vaccinated? Like, are people going to start asking? Just saying that that is a personal question. Sort of like how you wouldn’t go up to someone asking when the last time they had sex with their spouse or SO.

It’s not the slightest bit weird to confirm that people with whom one is considering interaction have taken appropriate safety measures. What is weird is getting offended by the question. The difference here is that there is a significant contingent of people who hold incorrect beliefs regarding the efficacy of the safety measure in question and who make bad decisions based on that; and on top of that the hazard is contagious, making everybody’s compliance a matter of personal interest to everybody else.

Finally, is it too much to ask that members of this forum not channel that idiot of idiots, Tucker Carlson?

I despise tucker Carlson, I dont agree with what jeffster said, but there's a big difference between saying we should call the police for child abuse if we see kids wearing masks, and suggesting that if your vaccinated you shouldn't be worried about being around unvaccinated people. 

Simply having massive groupthink and one train of thought isnt productive its harmful to society. Just as is people's current inability to engage with those who hold different viewpoints.

[jeffster]

Finally, is it too much to ask that members of this forum not channel that idiot of idiots, Tucker Carlson?

Funny, I don’t watch Fox, but I do CNN. While I have no issue with people asking if I had my a vaccine, I have found that some that believe it’s none of ‘your f’n business’. These people, btw, very liberal and very left politically, more so than most.

Not a cool accusation, though.

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Grey Bruce Health Unit 75.9
• Porcupine Health Unit 31.2
• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 23.1
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 20.8
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 13.8
• Huron Perth Public Health 12.2
• Middlesex-London Health Unit 9.5
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 9.3
• Southwestern Public Health 9.0
• Halton Region Public Health 8.1

• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 0.-6
• Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit 0.-5

• TOTAL ONTARIO 7.3

Thunder Bay DH and Leeds, Grenville & Lanark DH trying to be better than the best…

[ac3r]

Which is interesting, because if the vaccine works like they claim, one shouldn’t have to worry about getting sick (or at least, ‘really sick’).

True, but it could also be an ethical stance. For example, although I'm fully vaccinated, if I were - by some small chance - to spend time with an anti-vaxxer who then gave me the virus, I could then spread that to other people who are not vaccinated...be it children, people who cannot take it for health reasons or to anti-vaxxers themselves. Ethically, I personally would not wish to be a potential vector for transmission to such people who have a chance of getting sick or dying, so I would prefer to avoid spending time near those who reject the vaccine. I know I would probably be okay even if infected, but I don't want to spread it to others. I'm not going to be casually asking people because it's not my business, but if someone was to say to me "I'm not taking that poison! Microchips and reptilians!" I am going to avoid them at all costs.

[Bjays93]

Which is interesting, because if the vaccine works like they claim, one shouldn’t have to worry about getting sick (or at least, ‘really sick’).

True, but it could also be an ethical stance. For example, although I'm fully vaccinated, if I were - by some small chance - to spend time with an anti-vaxxer who then gave me the virus, I could then spread that to other people who are not vaccinated...be it children, people who cannot take it for health reasons or to anti-vaxxers themselves. Ethically, I personally would not wish to be a potential vector for transmission to such people who have a chance of getting sick or dying, so I would prefer to avoid spending time near those who reject the vaccine. I know I would probably be okay even if infected, but I don't want to spread it to others. I'm not going to be casually asking people because it's not my business, but if someone was to say to me "I'm not taking that poison! Microchips and reptilians!" I am going to avoid them at all costs.

This is true but the problem is as you mentioned even as a vaccinated person you can be a vector for transmission. So if you a vaccinated person can spread it to other vaccinated people who spread it to high risk family member, you still have a potential chain of transmission even without being around someone who's unvaccinated. So I honestly don't know how much of a difference it makes and I havent taken the time to research and find an answer yet.

[ac3r]

Well, vaccines increase your ability to both fight the virus and survive the disease this virus causes. This also means, because the immune system has an idea how to fight the virus, that a vaccinated person with the virus will likely have have less viral load within their body, which means even if infected they have less chance of spreading it (which is important for a infected person who is vaccinated, as they'd be more likely to be asymptomatic and not even know they have it). The question then becomes: would a vaccinated individual want to spend any amount of time near someone who is unvaccinated, who therefore has a greater chance at having the virus and who would shed more of it? I would think any sensible individual would say hell no. It's a matter of judging risk. Likely, as time goes on, people will just stop caring altogether, but in the short term it seems like most Canadians are not willing to take any sort of risk being around these sort of people. I read some post on Reddit that made an analogy to sex: would you sleep with a friend who tends to have STDs - even if the sex is amazing - or are you more likely to avoid that? Most sane people are not willing to catch herpes even if there was some wild, kinky sex to be had because nobody wants that nor wants to spread it around.

[tomh009]

THURSDAY 2021-07-22

Waterloo Region reported 17 new cases for today (10.4% of the active cases) and zero more for yesterday for 12; 135 new cases for the week (-7 from yesterday and -63 from last week), averaging 9.4% of active cases. 154 active cases, -97 in the last seven days.

Next testing report on Friday.

5,475 doses of vaccine administered, with a seven-day average at 5,825 (previous week was 8,927). 66.47% of total regional population vaccinated (+0.11% today, +0.83% from 7 days ago), 50.76% fully vaccinated (+0.79% today, +5.80% from 7 days ago). 

Ontario reported 185 new cases today with a seven-day average of 156 (+6). 149 recoveries and seven deaths translated to an increase of 29 active cases and a new total of 1,363. -80 active cases for the week and 32 deaths (five per day). 19,599 tests with a positivity rate of 0.94%. The positivity rate is averaging 0.89% for the past seven days, compared to 0.69% for the preceding seven. 110 patients in ICU (-2 today, -20 for the week) with COVID-19.

New case variants reported today (these are substantially delayed so they do not match the new case numbers):

• Alpha (B.1.1.7): 99
  
• Beta (B.1.351): 5
  
• Delta (B.1.617): 61 (63% of variants over the past 10 days)
  
• Gamma (P.1): 69
  

125,166 doses of vaccine administered, with a seven-day average at 137,473 (previous week was 178,113). 70.19% of total provincial population vaccinated (+0.12% from yesterday, +0.81% from 7 days ago), 56.20% fully vaccinated (+0.73% from yesterday, +5.72% from 7 days ago). 

• 5 cases in Huron Perth: 5.1 per 100K
  
• 10 cases in Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph: 3.7 per 100K
  
• 17 cases in Hamilton: 2.9 per 100K
  
• 5 cases in Eastern Ontario: 2.5 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Northwestern: 2.3 per 100K
  
• 9 cases in Middlesex-London: 2.2 per 100K
  
• 13 cases in Waterloo: 2.1 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)
  
• 2 cases in Chatham-Kent: 1.9 per 100K
  
• 10 cases in Halton: 1.8 per 100K
  
• 11 cases in Durham: 1.7 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Lambton: 1.5 per 100K
  
• 11 cases in York: 1.0 per 100K
  

[tomh009]

Well, vaccines increase your ability to both fight the virus and survive the disease this virus causes. This also means, because the immune system has an idea how to fight the virus, that a vaccinated person with the virus will likely have have less viral load within their body, which means even if infected they have less chance of spreading it (which is important for a infected person who is vaccinated, as they'd be more likely to be asymptomatic and not even know they have it). The question then becomes: would a vaccinated individual want to spend any amount of time near someone who is unvaccinated, who therefore has a greater chance at having the virus and who would shed more of it? I would think any sensible individual would say hell no. It's a matter of judging risk.

This is it, in short. Vaccination reduces the risk of disease -- and also the risk of spreading the virus. Even without having numerical data on this, I am confident that being with vaccinated people is safer than with unvaccinated people.

[jeffster]

This is it, in short. Vaccination reduces the risk of disease -- and also the risk of spreading the virus. Even without having numerical data on this, I am confident that being with vaccinated people is safer than with unvaccinated people.

Right. But the unvaccinated might be causing issues down the road. How do you reach out to these people? Do businesses at some point demand that their customers show proof of vaccination or no service?

OHL, for example, is ramping up -- everyone involved with the team will need to be vaccinated. Still millions of eligible Canadians not vaccinated, and our society is against vaccine shaming (much like it was with the mask).

[robdrimmie]

I read some post on Reddit that made an analogy to sex: would you sleep with a friend who tends to have STDs - even if the sex is amazing - or are you more likely to avoid that? Most sane people are not willing to catch herpes even if there was some wild, kinky sex to be had because nobody wants that nor wants to spread it around.

I'm being nit picky, but I don't feel the STD analogy works terribly well. There's plenty of perfectly safe ways to have sex with someone with an STD, depending on what it is and how the person is managing it. Herpes is extremely manageable and plenty of people have long term partners and tons of sex. True too for HIV/AIDS, HPV, plenty of other STDs are quite manageable.

It's close though. Those people who are being smart about their or their partners' STDs are doing so by following the guidance of public health and good scientific practices.

[danbrotherston]

This is it, in short. Vaccination reduces the risk of disease -- and also the risk of spreading the virus. Even without having numerical data on this, I am confident that being with vaccinated people is safer than with unvaccinated people.

Right. But the unvaccinated might be causing issues down the road. How do you reach out to these people? Do businesses at some point demand that their customers show proof of vaccination or no service?

OHL, for example, is ramping up -- everyone involved with the team will need to be vaccinated. Still millions of eligible Canadians not vaccinated, and our society is against vaccine shaming (much like it was with the mask).

Fortunately our vaccine missinformation campaign here is not as well funded as in the US.

As has been seen in France, creating a national vaccine proof program would probably be effective in driving significant new numbers of vaccinations.

[plam]

Quebec is having a COVID lottery: cash prizes for those who have been vaccinated. Other fun facts about Quebec: the delta percentage is estimated at 5%.

The University of Waterloo also just mandated vaccines for those living in residence, which I think is quite sensible.

As for hanging out with unvaccinated people: Nah I'd rather not. (Well, OK, I'm unvaccinated right now, but it's not broadly available in NZ to my age group yet).

[ac3r]

I'm being nit picky, but I don't feel the STD analogy works terribly well. There's plenty of perfectly safe ways to have sex with someone with an STD, depending on what it is and how the person is managing it. Herpes is extremely manageable and plenty of people have long term partners and tons of sex. True too for HIV/AIDS, HPV, plenty of other STDs are quite manageable.

It's close though. Those people who are being smart about their or their partners' STDs are doing so by following the guidance of public health and good scientific practices.

You're correct, of course. But I'd say that there are similarities between masks and condoms, if we are going to keep talking about sex haha. And I'd go as far as to say that an unvaccinated individual - at least those who are conspiracy theorists etc - are less likely to wear a mask than someone who simply cannot take it for medical reasons.

Quebec is having a COVID lottery: cash prizes for those who have been vaccinated. Other fun facts about Quebec: the delta percentage is estimated at 5%.

The University of Waterloo also just mandated vaccines for those living in residence, which I think is quite sensible.

As for hanging out with unvaccinated people: Nah I'd rather not. (Well, OK, I'm unvaccinated right now, but it's not broadly available in NZ to my age group yet).

Interesting. I didn't know Québec was doing that. I know some US states were doing such things but I wasn't aware of anywhere in Canada doing it. In the US, they've had million dollar jackpots if you got vaccinated. Some states/counties were even offering the chance to win trucks, college scholarships, savings bonds and outright just giving away free guns...the trucks and guns being hilariously American. I hope we don't get to that point, though...even if it helps. We shouldn't have to bribe people to be decent human beings. So far it seems like our citizens are sensible enough to take it at least. Those still hesitant may be swayed as time goes on and they see they're safe. As for the conspiracy theorists, they're likely unreachable no matter what.