General Suburban Updates and Rumours

[robdrimmie]

The major tech/engineering companies and incubators are all based in Kitchener.

I agree with everything else you're saying except this. I grew up in Waterloo and live in Kitchener and would be reluctant to move back.

The Accelerator Centre is in Waterloo. Communitech's Data Hub was intentionally opened in Waterloo, there's some political stuff behind it sure but Communitech started in Waterloo. Magnet Forsensics, perhaps the first Canadian tech company to IPO in several years is in Waterloo. BlackBerry is still a massive company, and is in Waterloo. Descartes, Auvik, etc. Velocity's main presence is on the UW campus.

Kitchener is more desirable for local tech companies, and very much for the reasons you say. But "all" is incorrect and it does diminish the work Waterloo the city has done and still does in a way that doesn't add value to your general argument.

[nms]

I've said it on here before, Waterloo is an incredibly conservative minded city. On the other hand Kitchener has done a great job at setting an example for not only itself but the province as whole, whether it's about how to densify a sprawling suburban environment, tackling homelessness, promoting rapid transit development in mid-sized cities or through investment in tech/engineering - which, oddly, is something Waterloo does very little of despite UW being present. The major tech/engineering companies and incubators are all based in Kitchener. Kitchener is also doing a good job developing new housing in order to continue to retain and attract the talent.

I think you are selling Waterloo short and ignoring some of their successes over the past 30 years:
- After a painful birth process, Northdale is becoming a compact, walkable community that will find its voice soon enough
- The majority of Waterloo's industrial reclamation projects predate Kitchener by a decade or two. Yes, the urban forms that were chosen then largely reflected the market and design ethic of 20-30 years ago, but it's difficult to look ahead 30 years in any industry
- Waterloo will be running out of land well before Kitchener. This has forced it to explore new forms of suburban living as well as to adapt existing neighhourhoods
- On homelessness and housing for those on the margins, Waterloo is home to SHOW (Supportive Housing of Waterloo) which was created through an incredible amount of work from community members.  They have one new build and have recently purchased the former KW Civitan Apartments to maintain its existing subsidized seniors housing.
- Waterloo has been home to (St) Monica House for expectant young women for more than 50 years, in the heart of the Mary-Allen neighbourhood.
- In the 1970s, Waterloo-Kitchener Mennonite Church created dedicated seniors apartments on George St (also in the Mary-Allen neighbourhood) to provide affordable living for seniors in the Uptown area. Luther Manor (St. John's Senior Citizens Home) just up the street, on the edge of the Mary-Allen neighbourhood was similarly created by St. John's Lutheran Church.
- When Beechwood and Beechwood West were established, they were designed with planned small community associations to provide recreational facilities that were within walking distance of each house
- Luther Village was actually established as a fundraising project to support Lutherwood.
- For all the challenges of the Erb/Caroline intersection, it is home to three award winning architectural projects (Seagram Museum/CIGI; Perimeter; Clay & Glass) that reflected the vision of benefactors and community members who felt that Waterloo was the ideal place for their bold ideas. 

None of these projects would have happened in Waterloo without the drive of the community, developers, and politicians with vision.

[jwilliamson]

I thought I would do some counting. I went through the Urban Areas and University Area forums and counted how many construction projects with their own threads there were in Kitchener and in Waterloo.

Kitchener had 12 complete projects and 19 under construction. Waterloo had 26 complete projects and 23 under construction, of which 7 complete and 2 under construction were outside the university area.

[ac3r]

Not sure if you counted that in regards to me saying that Waterloo hasn't done a whole lot. But if so, if you include the University Area section the count would be a lot higher because Waterloo let developers build quite a lot of trash student buildings..but none of those buildings do much in terms of actual progressive urban development. IMO they are regressive because they've destroyed the neighbourhoods and streetscapes they're in. If you just count what has been built uptown, they've built a whopping 5 projects (to my knowledge) in the last decade. Any new offices in Waterloo are waaay out at the Research and Technology park and that entire area is just acres upon acres of inhuman, ugly low rise car oriented crap that again acts in a horribly regressive way in terms of urban development. Kitchener has done a much better job to progress as a city.

[ac3r]

^ That said, it looks like Waterloo NIMBYs thankfully lost the fight against the townhouse project on Woolwich Street that I linked on the previous page: https://outline.com/cMsYuS

I love how Jeff Outhit, whom wrote the article, always sounds like one of them (he was the one always writing articles about how the LRT was a disaster). The opening sentence "Waterloo council keeps trying to put more people into less space, arguing it serves the public interest." sounds ridiculous. There is nothing to argue about increased density serving the public interest because it does serve the public interest. He's one reason I don't pay for The Record anymore.

[jwilliamson]

What do you think was actually lost in Northdale when the city allowed developers to replace student houses with student apartments with commercial uses?

Some of the towers (especially on King) are pretty ugly, but I would say the average street-level interaction in Northdale is as good as the average recent project in downtown Kitchener.

[ijmorlan]

^ That said, it looks like Waterloo NIMBYs thankfully lost the fight against the townhouse project on Woolwich Street that I linked on the previous page: https://outline.com/cMsYuS

“Waterloo council keeps trying to put more people into less space, arguing it serves the public interest. Neighbours keep pushing back.”

Rough translation:

Waterloo council keeps trying to find places for new people coming to the city to live, arguing that existing residents shouldn’t be the only ones to enjoy what the city has to offer. Existing residents keep arguing that people should not be allowed to move into the city.

[nms]

In the absence of knowing where else to park this story, Six Nations traditional governments have called for a moratorium on development in the Haldimand Tract. While I doubt that they will have much success in halting anything, it would be interesting to contemplate what would happen to the development industry in general if all greenfield development were immediately halted and/or no more building footprints were allowed to be created on existing land (say, for preserving water recharge areas). 

I think that the last time this largely happened would have been between the Depression in the 1930s and the Second World War where all construction was diverted to the war effort. However, in that case, there was a lot of greenfield development as bases were planted and expanded. When the war ended, many of those further flung bases gradually reverted back to almost greenfield conditions.

[ac3r]

What do you think was actually lost in Northdale when the city allowed developers to replace student houses with student apartments with commercial uses?

Some of the towers (especially on King) are pretty ugly, but I would say the average street-level interaction in Northdale is as good as the average recent project in downtown Kitchener.

Everything. The buildings don't do anything but house students. They didn't design the buildings nor the environment they are in to be human. Take a look at this, this or this. Who would want to live near any of it? It looks horrible and it has done nothing to make even walking down the street seem comfortable for people. They're ugly buildings with cramped living environments generally run by vicious landlords who routinely prey on naïve students. I don't believe a bubble tea shop or a hole in the wall restaurant really counts as good street interaction or retail options either. It's a massive student ghetto that I'm sure everyone will regret ever permitting in 20 years.

Compare these new student buildings to the old ones build in the the modernist era - for example the ones near Columbia and Westmount. While they may look dated these days, at least have open environments with green spaces, trees and parks.

[jamincan]

I dunno. I think the buildings on the other side of the street of the third streetview are pretty decent and definitely do more than house students. I personally think the Village residences at UW have very little to redeem them.

[kps]

The major tech/engineering companies and incubators are all based in Kitchener.

That's quite recent. For decades a tech company had to have a Waterloo address to maintain a notional association with UW. The turning point was Google taking space in the Tannery redevelopment.

[tomh009]

The major tech/engineering companies and incubators are all based in Kitchener.

That's quite recent. For decades a tech company had to have a Waterloo address to maintain a notional association with UW. The turning point was Google taking space in the Tannery redevelopment.

Absolutely. 20 years ago, you had to be in Waterloo. But the trend for the past 10 has been strongly toward Kitchener.

[nms]

The biggest loss in Northdale is the green space and pleasant pedestrian experience. All of the housing was set back from the street and most houses had one if not several large trees in front of them. Pedestrians had a good chance of a shady walk no matter which street they took. Northdale was also home to housing stock that would have permitted families to live there. The houses were just slightly bigger than than the immediate post-war housing so they had multiple bedrooms and common spaces (eg kitchen, dining and living rooms). They had space for residents to spend time outside, either sitting on a front porch, or spending time in their backyards. In the early years, the neighbourhood design would have allowed children to play in their yards or even on the street. These informal spaces and uses allowed for community interaction. Yes, it was largely a student neighbourhood before it was torn down, but I would argue it was more conducive to informal gathering than what is there now.

Now, many of the buildings are pushed nearly right up to the sidewalk. Those twigs that were planted along the sidewalk will not be providing shade for at least another 30 years or more. I suspect that much of the greenery around the buildings will slowly be allowed to die and not be replaced as a cost saving measure. Backyards have been largely replaced by parking lots. The only 'community space' space that is available is either a random park bench in a postage stamp plaza next to the front door, without any shade, or a table in a café or restaurant that will likely require a purchase of something in order to 'rent' the space. Living spaces have been replaced by one-bedroom apartments with no room for growth, families or even roommates unless you are sharing the same bed. One might hope that in the future some of the apartment buildings *might* be converted to include larger apartments, but I won't hold my breath.

While the Waterloo residences might not be viewed as great "real world" housing stock, they nevertheless provide buildings that function in the way that they are meant to and that have common space that encourages community building (eg dining halls and dons). I do, however, think that the Columbia Lake Village is generally a soulless place with few opportunities for community building or for connections to the wider neighbourhood.

[danbrotherston]

The biggest loss in Northdale is the green space and pleasant pedestrian experience.  All of the housing was set back from the street and most houses had one if not several large trees in front of them.  Pedestrians had a good chance of a shady walk no matter which street they took.  Northdale was also home to housing stock that would have permitted families to live there.  The houses were just slightly bigger than than the immediate post-war housing so they had multiple bedrooms and common spaces (eg kitchen, dining and living rooms). They had space for residents to spend time outside, either sitting on a front porch, or spending time in their backyards.  In the early years, the neighbourhood design would have allowed children to play in their yards or even on the street.  These informal spaces and uses allowed for community interaction.  Yes, it was largely a student neighbourhood before it was torn down, but I would argue it was more conducive to informal gathering than what is there now.

Now, many of the buildings are pushed nearly right up to the sidewalk. Those twigs that were planted along the sidewalk will not be providing shade for at least another 30 years or more.  I suspect that much of the greenery around the buildings will slowly be allowed to die and not be replaced as a cost saving measure.  Backyards have been largely replaced by parking lots.  The only 'community space' space that is available is either a random park bench in a postage stamp plaza next to the front door, without any shade, or a table in a café or restaurant that will likely require a purchase of something in order to 'rent' the space. Living spaces have been replaced by one-bedroom apartments with no room for growth, families or even roommates unless you are sharing the same bed.  One might hope that in the future some of the apartment buildings *might* be converted to include larger apartments, but I won't hold my breath.

While the Waterloo residences might not be viewed as great "real world" housing stock, they nevertheless provide buildings that function in the way that they are meant to and that have common space that encourages community building (eg dining halls and dons).  I do, however, think that the Columbia Lake Village is generally a soulless place with few opportunities for community building or for connections to the wider neighbourhood.

I actually find it more pleasant to walk somewhere when there aren't giant front lawns.

[ijmorlan]

A lot of good and interesting points. A couple of things jumped out as something on which I would like to comment:

Northdale was also home to housing stock that would have permitted families to live there.

This isn’t necessarily for or against what you’re saying, just a related point. Zoning for many years forbade redevelopment of the neighbourhood, long after the families had moved out and the houses renovated with extra bedrooms. Under current market conditions (specifically, being right next to a major university that has outgrown other student housing options), there is no way families are going to outbid apartment developers for the land. If zoning had allowed redevelopment, the houses would have been gradually expanded and/or replaced; instead, when the valve was opened, most of the neighbourhood was suddenly redeveloped.

Arguably this doesn’t make much difference in the long term. But I’m not even certain about that. With gradual redevelopment allowed, there would have been a lot of houses which would get additions, or be split into duplexes or triplexes, or both, and some of them would have been kept as such for longer, simply because the additional gain from full replacement with a larger apartment building wouldn’t have been as large. Think of older parts of the city like King St. in Waterloo, where if you look above and behind the commercial facades you can see traces of buildings which were originally built on a very different streetscape.

I do, however, think that the Columbia Lake Village is generally a soulless place with few opportunities for community building or for connections to the wider neighbourhood.

Very poorly designed, indeed. As an example, I used to visit friends there. Their unit was on Westmount Rd., but we accessed it by parking in a lot behind and going through their back door. The only key entry to their unit was on Westmount Rd., even though hardly anybody would come in that way; certainly, I can’t imagine they would have done so.

Also, and this isn’t really about the design of the buildings themselves, but installation of an air conditioner required permission from the commissar and the demonstration of “need”. The idea that maybe the tenants should just pay for their own electricity and that it’s none of the landlord’s business whether they use some of it for air conditioning doesn’t seem to have occurred to the geniuses running the place. NB: the units are individually metered — there are rows of electricity meters at the end of each block of houses.