City Centre/Young Condominiums | 17, 25 & 6 fl | U/C

[CedarHillAlum]

That picture really goes to show you how little sidewalk space most of King Street has. It'd be really nice if they could turn the street into a pedestrian only area from maybe Francis Street to Frederick Street...maybe permit delivery trucks to drive down it if they needed to (which is common to see in Europe). Weber can easily remain the arterial road, and then let Charles take some of the local traffic load off King Street. One can dream, at least.

The King Street pedestrian mall idea was tried back in the 1960s / 70s timeframe. I don't recall the official verdict but it seems to me that if it had been successful, it would still be in place.

[panamaniac]

That picture really goes to show you how little sidewalk space most of King Street has. It'd be really nice if they could turn the street into a pedestrian only area from maybe Francis Street to Frederick Street...maybe permit delivery trucks to drive down it if they needed to (which is common to see in Europe). Weber can easily remain the arterial road, and then let Charles take some of the local traffic load off King Street. One can dream, at least.

The King Street pedestrian mall idea was tried back in the 1960s / 70s timeframe. I don't recall the official verdict but it seems to me that if it had been successful, it would still be in place.

As I recall it, to the extent it was successful, it was because King was still a significant retail destination and the merchants were able to put their merchandise out in the street.  It would be a very different environment today - perhaps a food/entertainment district? That might work in the May-October period, but I’m not sure what it would be in winter.  Personally, I’d keep King open to traffic, for now at least, while pedestrianizing side streets.

[jeffster]

That picture really goes to show you how little sidewalk space most of King Street has. It'd be really nice if they could turn the street into a pedestrian only area from maybe Francis Street to Frederick Street...maybe permit delivery trucks to drive down it if they needed to (which is common to see in Europe). Weber can easily remain the arterial road, and then let Charles take some of the local traffic load off King Street. One can dream, at least.

The King Street pedestrian mall idea was tried back in the 1960s / 70s timeframe. I don't recall the official verdict but it seems to me that if it had been successful, it would still be in place.

I know Buffalo, NY tried something like this, and eventually had the cars return. The idea almost killed the downtown completely, and they gave it around 30 years (1986 to 2016). The cars returned in 2016, and the business with it, was sort of a renaissance for the city.

I think the real problem for cities in the area is the crappy climate with have for at least 6 months of the year. I think we might be able to do it for 4 months, maybe, like the May long weekend until the end of September. Though perhaps you could climatized the mall, but then that almost defeats the purpose.

[plam]

And, in any case, the single most important goal was to actually get the LRT approved!

Totally.

As I recall it, to the extent it was successful, it was because King was still a significant retail destination and the merchants were able to put their merchandise out in the street.  It would be a very different environment today - perhaps a food/entertainment district? That might work in the May-October period, but I’m not sure what it would be in winter.  Personally, I’d keep King open to traffic, for now at least, while pedestrianizing side streets.

There are a bunch of examples of pedestrianizations not working, and definitely year-round ones. Quebec City has another one. Montreal has summer pedestrianization of Ste-Catherine in the Village which seems to work. I don't have an overall theory of when pedestrianization works and when it doesn't.

[ijmorlan]

I think the real problem for cities in the area is the crappy climate with have for at least 6 months of the year. I think we might be able to do it for 4 months, maybe, like the May long weekend until the end of September. Though perhaps you could climatized the mall, but then that almost defeats the purpose.

What is the purpose? Every time this sort of discussion comes up, I always see things I don’t understand about the evils of interior spaces. What purpose of pedestrianization would be defeated by climate-controlling the space?

I also want to know more about car-free spaces supposedly destroying downtowns. In a busy downtown, the number of people on a normal-size sidewalk will be enormously higher than the number of people who could possibly be travelling in the motor vehicle lanes in cars. Furthermore, people in cars can’t easily get to the stores: they first have to park somewhere, in almost all cases not on the street (even if there is on-street parking, it can’t have significant capacity compared to the total number of people there).

So how does removing the maybe 10% of the traffic that is in cars on the street and giving the space to the 90% that is on foot destroy the downtown? What is really going on here? Is it that pedestrianization is tried as a way of rejuvenating something that is in decline, and it just doesn’t stop the decline? Are my numbers wrong (but I’ve walked on Yonge Street downtown; there is no way that a significant fraction of the people are in cars)? Or is it something else?

[jeffster]

I think the real problem for cities in the area is the crappy climate with have for at least 6 months of the year. I think we might be able to do it for 4 months, maybe, like the May long weekend until the end of September. Though perhaps you could climatized the mall, but then that almost defeats the purpose.

What is the purpose? Every time this sort of discussion comes up, I always see things I don’t understand about the evils of interior spaces. What purpose of pedestrianization would be defeated by climate-controlling the space?

I also want to know more about car-free spaces supposedly destroying downtowns. In a busy downtown, the number of people on a normal-size sidewalk will be enormously higher than the number of people who could possibly be travelling in the motor vehicle lanes in cars. Furthermore, people in cars can’t easily get to the stores: they first have to park somewhere, in almost all cases not on the street (even if there is on-street parking, it can’t have significant capacity compared to the total number of people there).

So how does removing the maybe 10% of the traffic that is in cars on the street and giving the space to the 90% that is on foot destroy the downtown? What is really going on here? Is it that pedestrianization is tried as a way of rejuvenating something that is in decline, and it just doesn’t stop the decline? Are my numbers wrong (but I’ve walked on Yonge Street downtown; there is no way that a significant fraction of the people are in cars)? Or is it something else?

You got me. I think something climate controlled would be good, at least for the cold months. But it seems to have negatives attached to it.

Yonge St in Toronto is an unfair comparison to any city. But I did try to find more info on Buffalo (little more difficult than I thought it would be) and found these: https://www.thestar.com/news/pedestrian-...sance.html and this https://buffalonews.com/opinion/editoria...55265.html That said, when you mention 'busy downtowns', this doesn't ever seem to apply to places like Kitchener, or in the other case, Buffalo,

Downtown Buffalo is way more robust than Kitcheners, and both have identical populations (255,000). However, it doesn't tell the whole story. Buffalo had 506,000 in 1920 vs 22,000 for K-Town, during those times when downtowns were still being built. But if a place like Buffalo failed with this plan, I am not sure how Kitchener could be successful.

[jamincan]

I'm hesitant about all out closing King Street because there are many examples of closing a struggling downtown retail street in order to revitalize it and it having the opposite effect. The example I know of is Spark Street in Ottawa, which is largely only successful as a tourist destination and an utter failure as a destination for Ottawans. The Byward Market, on the otherhand, always felt way more vital as a destination despite not being completely closed off to cars. (Take these impressions with a grain of salt, because they're almost 20 years out of date now.)

That said, there are some great opportunities and I think pedestrianization is a possibility in principle, as King Street is not an important thoroughfare for cars. I'd say as a first step, Gaukel Street should be closed. The case has already been made and the benefits are obvious. As a part of that, I'd suggest closing King Street between College and Young to cars, or have it setup where cars and pedestrians are mixed (once pedestrian traffic reaches a certain threshold). This then gives an opportunity for any revitalization that does occur to have a focus, and then as that becomes more successful, it can expand outward. This would hopefully limit business opposition and lead to an approach where businesses actually want the pedestrianization to be extended.

[ijmorlan]

On a related note, does anybody know what traffic is like on King St. in downtown lately, with it closed between Francis and Water?

I ask because one alternative to full closure is to close a block at each end of the proposed closure zone. This eliminates through traffic and therefore has a possibility of enormously reducing motor vehicle traffic without actually banning it. I know that I used to regularly drive on King St.; but now I use Charles. This is somewhat similar to King St. in Toronto, where a long segment through downtown requires non-streetcar motor vehicles to turn at most intersections, eliminating through traffic (and freeing up the street for the streetcars).

[DK519]

On a related note, does anybody know what traffic is like on King St. in downtown lately, with it closed between Francis and Water?

I ask because one alternative to full closure is to close a block at each end of the proposed closure zone. This eliminates through traffic and therefore has a possibility of enormously reducing motor vehicle traffic without actually banning it. I know that I used to regularly drive on King  St.; but now I use Charles. This is somewhat similar to King St. in Toronto, where a long segment through downtown requires non-streetcar motor vehicles to turn at most intersections, eliminating through traffic (and freeing up the street for the streetcars).

It has been fairly normal.

I noticed last night, however, it was closed from Ontario to Queen as well.

I think a lot of people, like you, are continuing to use Charles even since Weber has reopened because I've noticed it is very easy to cross on foot with very little traffic most times during the day.

[westwardloo]

I think the success of downtown businesses is reliant on project like this continuing to be built. The more people living downtown the better. I think the # of people in south Kitchener driving into downtown to shop or even go out for dinner is probably relatively low. Would love to see the data on this to back that up. But why pander the downtown environment to car culture of the suburbs? That's what strip malls and power centres are there for.  

We are probably at least 5 years away from a pedestrian mall being a reality. I think you slowly ease everyone into it. Close small sections of king to deter through traffic to Weber and Charles. eventually close king from May until end of December.  That way you can have an extended Christmas market and a better DTK district for the oktoberfest. Both of which I think are a draw from all over the city.

[panamaniac]

If you close King only for the good weather, then you've got a closed street with temporary stuff in in (as we see during event closures). It would not be a pedestrianized street as I think of it.

[westwardloo]

I agree, but May until end of December is 8 months. I think you would see some decent "temporary" installation pop up along the corridor. Stuff that could be stored for 4 months and reinstalled. I think it would be a great opportunity for the city to open an art installation competition that could be run yearly. I know the city of Toronto did this for King st.  So king st could have a different theme or installations year to year. Along side the extended patios, which is the main reason to shut down king to vehicles.  

Sorry back on subject. I am looking forward to seeing the exterior cladding of this building. could make or break it.

[ac3r]

That picture really goes to show you how little sidewalk space most of King Street has. It'd be really nice if they could turn the street into a pedestrian only area from maybe Francis Street to Frederick Street...maybe permit delivery trucks to drive down it if they needed to (which is common to see in Europe). Weber can easily remain the arterial road, and then let Charles take some of the local traffic load off King Street. One can dream, at least.

The King Street pedestrian mall idea was tried back in the 1960s / 70s timeframe. I don't recall the official verdict but it seems to me that if it had been successful, it would still be in place.

Are you talking about the "King Street bubble" concept they had back then? I don't know the city history completely, so I'm unaware of King Street being pedestrian at any point.

[CedarHillAlum]

The King Street pedestrian mall idea was tried back in the 1960s / 70s timeframe. I don't recall the official verdict but it seems to me that if it had been successful, it would still be in place.

Are you talking about the "King Street bubble" concept they had back then? I don't know the city history completely, so I'm unaware of King Street being pedestrian at any point.

Sorry, I don't know anything about the "King Street bubble" concept. I'm referring to an actual closure of King Street when it was all the rage in many cities back decades ago. I believe Toronto experimented with a pedestrian mall on Yonge Street and Ottawa created the Sparks St. mall. There are probably dozens of cities across North America that have tried this.

[ac3r]

I agree, but May until end of December is 8 months. I think you would see some decent "temporary" installation pop up along the corridor. Stuff that could be stored for 4 months and reinstalled. I think it would be a great opportunity for the city to open an art installation competition that could be run yearly. I know the city of Toronto did this for King st.  So king st could have a different theme or installations year to year. Along side the extended patios, which is the main reason to shut down king to vehicles.  

Sorry back on subject. I am looking forward to seeing the exterior cladding of this building. could make or break it.

Are you talking about the "King Street bubble" concept they had back then? I don't know the city history completely, so I'm unaware of King Street being pedestrian at any point.

Sorry, I don't know anything about the "King Street bubble" concept. I'm referring to an actual closure of King Street when it was all the rage in many cities back decades ago. I believe Toronto experimented with a pedestrian mall on Yonge Street and Ottawa created the Sparks St. mall. There are probably dozens of cities across North America that have tried this.

I see, different things then. Well, back when Market Square and the was built, they also had plans to enclose a huge section of King Street with canopies turning it into a pedestrian mall. Thankfully it never got built as I don't think it would have aged very well and would have likely been an even worse disaster for downtown than Market Square (and King Centre) ended up being. Here is sketch of King Street as envisioned by John Lingwood: