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Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road
Given how long the widenings take (three years for this one, for example), they tend to start them early. They have also started the widening between Mississauga and Milton. Once those are done, I expect they'll be widening the remaining distance between Cambridge and Milton, whether the traffic at that time warrants it or not. I think the complete widening to 4+ lanes between Toronto and Cambridge will take to somewhere close to 2030, and they are working with their traffic projections for that same timeline.

It's not like widening a single city street that can typically be done in a single construction season.

As little as I personally drive on the 401, and as much as I hate that driving experience, it's pretty much a necessary evil, for both people and goods. Even if we do get the all-day two-way GO (at an improved speed?) the 401 traffic will continue to grow for the foreseeable future.
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(05-20-2020, 03:15 PM)tomh009 Wrote: As little as I personally drive on the 401, and as much as I hate that driving experience, it's pretty much a necessary evil, for both people and goods. Even if we do get the all-day two-way GO (at an improved speed?) the 401 traffic will continue to grow for the foreseeable future.

That seems defeatist. If we had two-way all-day GO trains running Kitchener to Toronto, every 30 mins or better, 60 min end-to-end travel time, I bet we'd make a huge dent in 401 passenger volumes. That doesn't even require the ambitious HSR proposals, running some EMUs and upgrading the track to class 5/6 standards would do. GO had a proposal to do something similar for Toronto-Hamilton they called Super GO.

The only reason we need to keep widening the 401 is that we refuse to invest in any alternatives. We're stuck in a cycle of "people don't take trains because service sucks" so "let's not improve trains because no one uses them" so "people don't take trains because service sucks" so....
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(05-20-2020, 03:15 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Given how long the widenings take (three years for this one, for example), they tend to start them early. They have also started the widening between Mississauga and Milton. Once those are done, I expect they'll be widening the remaining distance between Cambridge and Milton, whether the traffic at that time warrants it or not. I think the complete widening to 4+ lanes between Toronto and Cambridge will take to somewhere close to 2030, and they are working with their traffic projections for that same timeline.

It's not like widening a single city street that can typically be done in a single construction season.

As little as I personally drive on the 401, and as much as I hate that driving experience, it's pretty much a necessary evil, for both people and goods. Even if we do get the all-day two-way GO (at an improved speed?) the 401 traffic will continue to grow for the foreseeable future.

This is the policy that has driven widening for the past 70 years, widening only makes the traffic worse, the only way to stop increasing traffic is to stop widening.

If we stopped widening, people would use other modes. If we want to remove congestion, pricing, not infinite widening is a solution that would actually reduce volumes.

And widening with the belief that traffic will grow for another 30 years is investing in failing to solve climate change, that's a bad decision in every way.

At this point, no road widening project is a good idea, all are driven by status quo conservatism, but some are more harmful than others, this is probably not one of the better ones.
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Kind of hard to get all those transport trucks onto a Go train.
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I’m all for improved Go service to Toronto when heading downtown.
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(05-20-2020, 04:58 PM)creative Wrote: Kind of hard to get all those transport trucks onto a Go train.

We also have freight trains.

And besides, transport trucks would have much less trouble going up an uncongested road, and freight operators would gladly pay tolls for reliable shipping times.
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(05-20-2020, 03:32 PM)taylortbb Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 03:15 PM)tomh009 Wrote: As little as I personally drive on the 401, and as much as I hate that driving experience, it's pretty much a necessary evil, for both people and goods. Even if we do get the all-day two-way GO (at an improved speed?) the 401 traffic will continue to grow for the foreseeable future.

That seems defeatist. If we had two-way all-day GO trains running Kitchener to Toronto, every 30 mins or better, 60 min end-to-end travel time, I bet we'd make a huge dent in 401 passenger volumes. That doesn't even require the ambitious HSR proposals, running some EMUs and upgrading the track to class 5/6 standards would do. GO had a proposal to do something similar for Toronto-Hamilton they called Super GO.

The only reason we need to keep widening the 401 is that we refuse to invest in any alternatives. We're stuck in a cycle of "people don't take trains because service sucks" so "let's not improve trains because no one uses them" so "people don't take trains because service sucks" so....

Not sure if even a good quality GO system would put a huge dent in it. You have a family and friends, and anything by train is too expensive, and too time consuming. Last time it cost us $120 round trip from Kitchener to Toronto plus $24 for TTC, grand total was close to $150. Never again. 401 to Downsview Station, $15 gas ($1.15 per litre), $5 parking, and $24 TTC. Transit was the most expensive component still, but total cost less than 1/3.

It isn't just a matter that 'service sucks' - any sort of transit isn't geared to families, those with disabilities, those who don't have copious amounts of time on their hands, and those that don't live close to the mains.

Now, if you're single, without children, not taking care of an elderly parent, don't have a disability, you have time, then sure, transit is better.

I sometimes wonder for those people that don't drive, and/or those that hate cars, even have a slight understanding why people actually drive.

Though I think in the future transit will be different -- we'll have self driving vehicles that can pick up people and families at a cost that is more favourable than car ownership. But that's still a ways away.
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(05-20-2020, 07:31 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 03:32 PM)taylortbb Wrote: That seems defeatist. If we had two-way all-day GO trains running Kitchener to Toronto, every 30 mins or better, 60 min end-to-end travel time, I bet we'd make a huge dent in 401 passenger volumes. That doesn't even require the ambitious HSR proposals, running some EMUs and upgrading the track to class 5/6 standards would do. GO had a proposal to do something similar for Toronto-Hamilton they called Super GO.

The only reason we need to keep widening the 401 is that we refuse to invest in any alternatives. We're stuck in a cycle of "people don't take trains because service sucks" so "let's not improve trains because no one uses them" so "people don't take trains because service sucks" so....

Not sure if even a good quality GO system would put a huge dent in it. You have a family and friends, and anything by train is too expensive, and too time consuming. Last time it cost us $120 round trip from Kitchener to Toronto plus $24 for TTC, grand total was close to $150. Never again. 401 to Downsview Station, $15 gas ($1.15 per litre), $5 parking, and $24 TTC. Transit was the most expensive component still, but total cost less than 1/3.

It isn't just a matter that 'service sucks' - any sort of transit isn't geared to families, those with disabilities, those who don't have copious amounts of time on their hands, and those that don't live close to the mains.

Now, if you're single, without children, not taking care of an elderly parent, don't have a disability, you have time, then sure, transit is better.

I sometimes wonder for those people that don't drive, and/or those that hate cars, even have a slight understanding why people actually drive.

Though I think in the future transit will be different -- we'll have self driving vehicles that can pick up people and families at a cost that is more favourable than car ownership. But that's still a ways away.

First lets address "disability"...because this one drives me freaking crazy. Driving...IS NOT...a solution to accessibility. There are in fact MANY disabilities which make driving challenging or impossible. Those who have a disability which prevents them from driving are in fact, disadvantaged by the refusal to invest in transit and other modes.  It makes me down right angry when people try to use, yes USE, disabled people as an excuse for prioritizing driving over other modes. I know you are not exactly doing that here, but you are perpetuating the mistaken belief that disabled people are universally benefitted by cars...which is completely untrue.

Now, all the legitimate grievences you list are not reasons that driving is better, they are reasons that our economic incentives for driving vs. transit are backwards.

Now why you think I don't understand why people drive I have no idea. I live in the same world as you do, I damn well know, I suffer through all the disadvantages of not owning a car every single day. I know better than most, and I seem to know better than you, why people drive because I've also looked deeper. We've discussed these issues at length here. So I just don't get this statement, you are the one proving you don't know why people drive, you say, it's cheaper, do you know why it's cheaper, that's part of knowing why people drive.

For the record, I don't hate cars, I'm a tech guy, cars are a form of tech!  But as I sit here typing this listening to some fuckwad rev his fucking tuner in Downtown Kitchener, disturbing literally tens of thousands of residents, I hate the policies which have ensured that unfettered car use is prioritized over all facets of our city including environment, equality, accessibility, safety, and enjoyment.  These policies destroy our cities.

Self driving vehicles have the possibility of being transformative in our cities, I would hate for that transformation to be a further destruction of the cities by increasing dependence on the worst possible transportation system.
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(05-20-2020, 03:32 PM)taylortbb Wrote: The only reason we need to keep widening the 401 is that we refuse to invest in any alternatives. We're stuck in a cycle of "people don't take trains because service sucks" so "let's not improve trains because no one uses them" so "people don't take trains because service sucks" so....

Additionally - on a more cynical note - the current government has a lot of friends in the road-construction industry. Facilitating them with contracts is a big part of their gameplan.
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(05-20-2020, 04:58 PM)creative Wrote: Kind of hard to get all those transport trucks onto a Go train.

You should run for President.
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(05-20-2020, 07:31 PM)jeffster Wrote: Not sure if even a good quality GO system would put a huge dent in it. You have a family and friends, and anything by train is too expensive, and too time consuming. Last time it cost us $120 round trip from Kitchener to Toronto plus $24 for TTC, grand total was close to $150. Never again. 401 to Downsview Station, $15 gas ($1.15 per litre), $5 parking, and $24 TTC. Transit was the most expensive component still, but total cost less than 1/3.

How many of those cars at rush hours are single-occupant commuters? Substantially all of those could go by train with an improved public transportation system.

Charge tolls with various components — congestion and road wear being the most important — and watch much of the truck traffic move to trains (trucks should be charged an enormous road wear component).

I think the remaining traffic would have no trouble fitting on the existing highway.
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(05-20-2020, 07:31 PM)jeffster Wrote: Not sure if even a good quality GO system would put a huge dent in it. You have a family and friends, and anything by train is too expensive, and too time consuming. Last time it cost us $120 round trip from Kitchener to Toronto plus $24 for TTC, grand total was close to $150. Never again. 401 to Downsview Station, $15 gas ($1.15 per litre), $5 parking, and $24 TTC. Transit was the most expensive component still, but total cost less than 1/3.

Firstly, if you think GO couldn't have a large impact on traffic between KW and Toronto, then you must have never experienced what commuter train networks are capable of. There are a massive number of single occupant vehicles going between KW and Toronto every day, and I think a lot of those people would prefer taking GO trains if they were operating at full commuter rail potential. Trains, ideally, should be more consistent and faster than driving. Not to mention being able to at least partially reclaim ~3 hours of your day by not having to be occupied with driving. In GOs current state I understand why someone would think the way you do, if you haven't experienced a proper rail network. I have been watching board meetings and town halls with the new-ish Metrolinx CEO, and I have to say I am impressed and much more hopeful for the future of GO than I was before, but we'll see.

Secondly, no one is asking everyone to stop driving completely. I think a fully (or nearly fully) occupied car is perfectly reasonable to have on the road.

(05-20-2020, 07:31 PM)jeffster Wrote: It isn't just a matter that 'service sucks' - any sort of transit isn't geared to families, those with disabilities, those who don't have copious amounts of time on their hands, and those that don't live close to the mains.

No, those are all examples of 'service sucks'. There are plenty of places in the world where families and the disabled do just fine depending on transit, and where transit is faster than driving (especially if all those people on transit were forced to drive instead). And not having good transit close to where you live is the most obvious example of 'service sucks'.

(05-20-2020, 07:31 PM)jeffster Wrote: I sometimes wonder for those people that don't drive, and/or those that hate cars, even have a slight understanding why people actually drive.

This comment bothers me the most though. I don't think it's possible to live in Canada and not understand why people drive. If you don't own a car, you are constantly reminded of the disadvantage you are put at because of not owning a car. At the moment, I make the conscious choice to not drive, and it's not because I hate cars (I don't). I think you are the one not understanding the other point of view; the belief that there are other, better, alternatives to driving in many, but not all, cases. But only if we invest equally in them.
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(05-20-2020, 03:42 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: This is the policy that has driven widening for the past 70 years, widening only makes the traffic worse, the only way to stop increasing traffic is to stop widening.

If we stopped widening, people would use other modes. If we want to remove congestion, pricing, not infinite widening is a solution that would actually reduce volumes.

Not widening, without offering alternatives, is not a realistic solution. People need transport, and so do goods.

We don't have a viable commuter rail option. Not enough frequency, and not enough speed. And not enough connectivity at either end (not everyone is commuting from DTK to Union Station). AD2WGO is like a mirage that keeps moving out, and while I hope we get it sometime not too far away, it's unclear whether we can get any substantial performance improvements with it.

And, as someone else said, GO doesn't help for goods transport.

To really ramp down highway traffic, we need real rail capacity (including first/last mile) and capability. Alas, I just don't see us getting it in the next 20 years. So I encourage, promote and support rail, but also accept the 401 as a necessary evil.
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(05-20-2020, 08:43 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: How many of those cars at rush hours are single-occupant commuters? Substantially all of those could go by train with an improved public transportation system.

Charge tolls with various components — congestion and road wear being the most important — and watch much of the truck traffic move to trains (trucks should be charged an enormous road wear component).

I think the remaining traffic would have no trouble fitting on the existing highway.

I would support occupant-based tolling for passenger cars on the 401 (three and it's free, or something like that), and wear-based for transports. That would likely reduce the number of cars substantially (and improve our CO2 emissions while we are at it) but it would be a very hard sell politically.

But we don't have a rail network that can take over the goods transportation. Have you ever observed the rail shipments coming into Kitchener? We need better trains, more parallel tracks, better crossings -- and a denser network in the first place. And it would still be difficult to displace the trucks coming from Michigan or Quebec. I simply don't think we have the capability or capacity that many other countries do.
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(05-20-2020, 09:00 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 03:42 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: This is the policy that has driven widening for the past 70 years, widening only makes the traffic worse, the only way to stop increasing traffic is to stop widening.

If we stopped widening, people would use other modes. If we want to remove congestion, pricing, not infinite widening is a solution that would actually reduce volumes.

Not widening, without offering alternatives, is not a realistic solution. People need transport, and so do goods.

We don't have a viable commuter rail option. Not enough frequency, and not enough speed. And not enough connectivity at either end (not everyone is commuting from DTK to Union Station). AD2WGO is like a mirage that keeps moving out, and while I hope we get it sometime not too far away, it's unclear whether we can get any substantial performance improvements with it.

And, as someone else said, GO doesn't help for goods transport.

To really ramp down highway traffic, we need real rail capacity (including first/last mile) and capability. Alas, I just don't see us getting it in the next 20 years. So I encourage, promote and support rail, but also accept the 401 as a necessary evil.

The liberals had a plan for AD2WGO in 10 years, including HSR, instead we're widening the highway.  I'm not suggesting we close the highway, but as Jeffster pointed out, even our economic incentives prioritise driving right now.

But what it really comes down too, is this attitude you are giving is a perpetual motion machine, we will never have alternatives so long as we keep making driving as easy and cheap as possible, by definition. Until we are willing to price the highway the same as we already price transit, and willing to invest in transit the way we have already invested in the highway, we will continue to have this, and saying "well you have to build the highway because there is no choice" does nothing but perpetuate the status quo.

And to suggest that we have no other options is totally false. Today, MTO could order 2000 motorcoaches, 1,000,000 flex bollards, and a few dozen toll and fine cameras, and convert the left lane of the highway into a BRT (or a BRT/HOV) lane, and run 3 minute service to every town on the high way, this would cost about the same as widening, but would actually solve some of our problems as opposed to perpetuating them. And if you tolled the highway, it might even be revenue neutral, and probably decrease travel times to boot. These are real options, yes, not well fleshed out, but there is no technical reason we cannot make these changes, it is 100% political, which I'm not saying doesn't matter, but we don't need fancy technology or new ideas, we need political will.
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