The Aud

[ijmorlan]

Why would you make transit free precisely when it is under the greatest demand?

If transit is to be free, it should start with late nights and mid day (and none of this “for seniors” nonsense, which I’m increasingly finding hard to believe can be “demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”).

As a low income senior, I appreciate the discounted fare.

If somebody wants to propose discounted fares for low-income people, we can have a conversation about that, although I would prefer to just hand out a guaranteed minimum income and stop with the mess of band-aid solutions.

But I fail to see why being a certain age should entitle one to a reduced fare, nor even why anybody would think that it should.

[jeffster]

Why can't the employees take public transit? No parking needed.

Because most transit in the region doesn't go past midnight or before 6 am, and therefore is utterly useless for staff, especially when they are needed the most -- game night or event night and Sundays. Not to mention if you want a 17 year old female riding the busses at night assuming they're on a main route with the idiots that go on the busses late at night. We'll skip the whole transit is time consuming in this region, as it is. My mother wanted to get to her doctors office and avoid asking me (since I was working) and to make a successful trip, she needed to have about 5 hours of time for the full trip (there and back). At 79, she can't do that.

Transit is a good option if you live on a main route, work on a main route, and your working hours are during peek transit hours. It's also good when you have a lot of spare time on your hands and don't have a lot of responsibilities. It's good if this is your only option due to medical reasons (such as being blind) or legal reasons (such as a DUI).

When I looked at my own situation, and my hours of work, transit is unavailable to me 14 working days out of 20. This is because I start work a 6am 7 out of 20 days, I finish work at midnight (or 11) 7 days out of 20. Those 14 days also include 2 Sundays which has zero service for where I live.

[creative]

The old transit terminal property is starting to grow on me. You can’t put a lot of underground parking under the building as most arenas have the floor surface below ground. Could you expand the property by including the old post office property and closing Gaukle street? You could build underground parking at the post office site and have a large Maple Leaf Square/Jurasic Park like promenade.

[jeffster]

Another question for the old terminal being made into The Aud -- we're do we dump the snow? I have no idea how London does it, or other urban arena's, but this day and age, especially with green energy initiatives and commitments, there is very limited abilities to dump snow. At all current city facilities, nature does the job of removing snow. Traffic and pedestrians are not an issue.

[KevinL]

By 'snow' you mean Zamboni shavings? I thought urban arenas sent that to a pit to slowly melt down the storm drain.

[jeffster]

By 'snow' you mean Zamboni shavings? I thought urban arenas sent that to a pit to slowly melt down the storm drain.

In Kitchener, everything is dumped outside, but I am guessing in urban centres they are dumped in pits, but it can't simply melt 'slowly'. You're talking about a lot of snow at a very low temperature (like -10ºC), and it would need assistance in melting which requires a lot of energy. Typically, for example, for something like a Rangers game, you're talking at least 4 full boxes of snow per game. After each game, you need to do maintenance on the ice, which removes more snow (and adds water). Typically for normal rentals you're looking at 1/2 box per rental (50 minutes ice time, 10 minutes for flood). I can't see any other way to get rid of the snow (or ice resurfacer shaving) other than to use immense energy, which goes against Kitchener's policy.

There are non-conventional ways such as reusing heat generated from cooling the ice (the compressors), like a heat exchanger, but then you have a system more prone to failures.

In a perfect world, with no climate emergencies, you would use conventional heat to melt the snow and be done with it.

[ijmorlan]

By 'snow' you mean Zamboni shavings? I thought urban arenas sent that to a pit to slowly melt down the storm drain.

In Kitchener, everything is dumped outside, but I am guessing in urban centres they are dumped in pits, but it can't simply melt 'slowly'. You're talking about a lot of snow at a very low temperature (like -10ºC), and it would need assistance in melting which requires a lot of energy. Typically, for example, for something like a Rangers game, you're talking at least 4 full boxes of snow per game. After each game, you need to do maintenance on the ice, which removes more snow (and adds water). Typically for normal rentals you're looking at 1/2 box per rental (50 minutes ice time, 10 minutes for flood). I can't see any other way to get rid of the snow (or ice resurfacer shaving) other than to use immense energy, which goes against Kitchener's policy.

This is a trivial amount of snow, compared to what falls outside all the time. If necessary, it could be dumped outside and trucked away whenever the outside snowfall is trucked away. I can’t see snow disposal being an issue with arena placement.

[timc]

If somebody wants to propose discounted fares for low-income people, we can have a conversation about that, although I would prefer to just hand out a guaranteed minimum income and stop with the mess of band-aid solutions.

But I fail to see why being a certain age should entitle one to a reduced fare, nor even why anybody would think that it should.

Aren't we already enacting discounted fare for low-income people?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.5278096

[taylortbb]

I really don't see a site in DTK that I would consider big enough for a new arena, except perhaps in the Innovation District.  The old transit station would just be too tight a squeeze, istm - there should be a public plaza out front, for example.

Given the persistent concerns about size I used Google Maps to put London's Bud Gardens on the Charles St Terminal site. The build itself fits quite nicely, with a decent amount of space left as a loading zone for trucks. The public plaza can be on Gaukel St, now that it's being closed to cars. The only part of the Bud Gardens site that doesn't fit is the surface parking, and I think that's just fine. The city already has ~3500 parking spots downtown, compared to the ~1650 at the current Aud. I did flip the building to put the loading zone in the corner where there's space.

   

I have to wonder what cities are doing this successfully?  And how does this affect the type of arrangement the Rangers have now (free to some degree): https://kitchenerrangers.com/article/rid...estaurants

I don't see "free" Ion or bus tickets unless they have a paying sponsor, as the Ion was super expensive, I don't think Joe Taxpayer wants to subsidize Rangers fans.

San Francisco is the one that comes to mind. The company I work for has their HQ right beside the Chase Center where they do this, and it's done wonders for the traffic. It doesn't have to be "free", just bundled into the ticket price. The city owns the venue, they can require every booking pay a transit charge. Not everyone would ride transit, so the fee doesn't have to be a full $2.86 per ticket. Just do it like the UPass where they estimate what the ridership would be, what the marginal cost of serving that ridership is (not a ton), and then charge that. Would probably be $0.75/ticket or something.

[jeffster]

In Kitchener, everything is dumped outside, but I am guessing in urban centres they are dumped in pits, but it can't simply melt 'slowly'. You're talking about a lot of snow at a very low temperature (like -10ºC), and it would need assistance in melting which requires a lot of energy. Typically, for example, for something like a Rangers game, you're talking at least 4 full boxes of snow per game. After each game, you need to do maintenance on the ice, which removes more snow (and adds water). Typically for normal rentals you're looking at 1/2 box per rental (50 minutes ice time, 10 minutes for flood). I can't see any other way to get rid of the snow (or ice resurfacer shaving) other than to use immense energy, which goes against Kitchener's policy.

This is a trivial amount of snow, compared to what falls outside all the time. If necessary, it could be dumped outside and trucked away whenever the outside snowfall is trucked away. I can’t see snow disposal being an issue with arena placement.

It's not a 'trivial' amount compared to what falls. You're looking at very cold, condensed frozen water in a very small place to put it. You can't compare it to snow.

To be honest, though, I do speak from extensive experience, and things like the topic of having a snow pit are ruled out due to costs and maintenance as is green policies that governments are enacting. Considering that, at The Aud, for example, ice maintenance is happening mid-August until the end of April at the every least (later if the Rangers go further into the playoffs) so trucking it away during snow falls isn't an option.

You could truck it out regardless of weather, but then that too defeats the purpose of the city trying to 'go green'. Though who knows, maybe they'll think of something. Though 100% you probably don't want a snow dump in the downtown for obvious reason (public health, and other risks).

[KevinL]

There is a snow dump in the city for when road snow gets too heavy in areas that it can't be shoved aside from (though I'm drawing a blank on its exact location). Is there anything saying arena 'snow' can't also be dumped there?

[ijmorlan]

This is a trivial amount of snow, compared to what falls outside all the time. If necessary, it could be dumped outside and trucked away whenever the outside snowfall is trucked away. I can’t see snow disposal being an issue with arena placement.

It's not a 'trivial' amount compared to what falls. You're looking at very cold, condensed frozen water in a very small place to put it. You can't compare it to snow.

Numbers or I call BS. Not to be blunt, but as far as I can see, thousands of trucks full of snow fall on the paved parts of the City every year. Of course, most of it never ends up in a truck because it just gets pushed to the side of the street to melt in the Spring. How many truckloads would the arena generate? Would it even be one per day? I think a large arena can afford to load one truck full of snow and dump it somewhere off site. And if this is an environmental problem then all the other activities of the arena are a much bigger environmental problem.

Also, what is the difference between “very cold, condensed frozen water” and snow? I know the arena “snow” arises from a different process so may have a different physical form, but it turns into the exact same stuff when it melts so I fail to see why it can’t just be piled anywhere that other snow may be piled.

[Acitta]

Why can't the employees take public transit? No parking needed.

Because most transit in the region doesn't go past midnight or before 6 am, and therefore is utterly useless for staff, especially when they are needed the most -- game night or event night and Sundays. Not to mention if you want a 17 year old female riding the busses at night assuming they're on a main route with the idiots that go on the busses late at night. We'll skip the whole transit is time consuming in this region, as it is. My mother wanted to get to her doctors office and avoid asking me (since I was working) and to make a successful trip, she needed to have about 5 hours of time for the full trip (there and back). At 79, she can't do that.

Transit is a good option if you live on a main route, work on a main route, and your working hours are during peek transit hours. It's also good when you have a lot of spare time on your hands and don't have a lot of responsibilities. It's good if this is your only option due to medical reasons (such as being blind) or legal reasons (such as a DUI).

When I looked at my own situation, and my hours of work, transit is unavailable to me 14 working days out of 20. This is because I start work a 6am 7 out of 20 days, I finish work at midnight (or 11) 7 days out of 20. Those 14 days also include 2 Sundays which has zero service for where I live.

People who do not regularly ride public transit seem to have strange ideas about what happens on transit and who rides it. I have news for you, 17 year old girls are already riding the buses at night.  The elderly and disabled with walkers and scooters ride transit. Women with infants and toddlers ride transit. For transit users, riding the bus is normal, not some kind of punishment. Also, the more people you have riding transit, the safer it is. As for late night bus schedules, when there is more demand then schedules can be adjusted to meet it. I regard to your mother, my mother lived alone (in London) till she was 95 and got by taking taxis and a community bus that stopped at her building with my brother only occasionally driving her places.
Transit doesn't work for everybody in every situation, but it would work for a lot more people who think that transit doesn't work for them because they haven't tried to integrate it into their lives.

[plam]

Also, what is the difference between “very cold, condensed frozen water” and snow? I know the arena “snow” arises from a different process so may have a different physical form, but it turns into the exact same stuff when it melts so I fail to see why it can’t just be piled anywhere that other snow may be piled.

I don't have numbers but I did grow up in Montreal and I observed the banks of snow that were always next to the community arenas that did not melt and the banks of snow that were in the mall parking lots that did melt. Since it was recently in ice form, I could see that the frozen water next to the arena could be harder to melt than the fluffy white stuff that falls from the sky.

[ijmorlan]

Transit doesn't work for everybody in every situation, but it would work for a lot more people who think that transit doesn't work for them because they haven't tried to integrate it into their lives.

Well said. Transit works about as well as we want to pay for it to work.

Not unlike roads — we, as a society, made a decision to pave roads to absolutely every house in the city, and guess what, roads are as a result stunningly useful. So much so, in fact, that the main roads are overloaded and can’t affordably be built fast enough to keep up.

If we decided that we would run transit at least every 10 minutes 18 hours a day on every existing route, I think ridership would go up so much that before too long, the fare recovery ratio would probably be back to where it is now. And at busy times all the main routes would have to run every 5 minutes, and all the iXpress routes would probably need to be converted to LRT. Useful transit is popular transit.