Amalgamation

[danbrotherston]

Specifically comparing fire services, EMS, and policing, I believe fire fighters are the only ones who have 24-hour shifts. All other emergency services typically do 12-hour shifts as far as I know. While fire response is important, fire-related calls are probably the least frequent of all three services. The fact that fire services are so often idle means we are often falling back on them to respond to medical calls because EMS is so over-worked. The whole situation seems backward to me; we should be spending more to improve EMS and finding ways to reduce cost for fire services.

There are very few jobs where you get paid to sleep.

Our paramedics are underpaid and understaffed.  Money from the fire dept should go towards them.

If a police officer or paramedic was photographed sleeping on duty, working out on duty, grocery shopping on duty, it would fail the "Globe and Mail" test.  A firefighter doing the same this is commonplace, and society accepts this.  This is where the problem lies.

I don't pay my doctor for his down time, but he will likely save my life before a firefighter does.

Coke

Mmm....doctors are probably not the best example, on call doctors (and some erm...higher level? nurses in some places) do occasionally end up napping, while on call.

Certainly it is a highly unusual example, pretty much restricted to on-call individuals.

For that matter, I have before been on an on-call rotation for a production system I managed, and was effectively paid to sleep...although that's a little different in that I was at home.

[Rainrider22]

Specifically comparing fire services, EMS, and policing, I believe fire fighters are the only ones who have 24-hour shifts. All other emergency services typically do 12-hour shifts as far as I know. While fire response is important, fire-related calls are probably the least frequent of all three services. The fact that fire services are so often idle means we are often falling back on them to respond to medical calls because EMS is so over-worked. The whole situation seems backward to me; we should be spending more to improve EMS and finding ways to reduce cost for fire services.

There are very few jobs where you get paid to sleep.

Our paramedics are underpaid and understaffed.  Money from the fire dept should go towards them.

If a police officer or paramedic was photographed sleeping on duty, working out on duty, grocery shopping on duty, it would fail the "Globe and Mail" test.  A firefighter doing the same this is commonplace, and society accepts this.  This is where the problem lies.

I don't pay my doctor for his down time, but he will likely save my life before a firefighter does.

Coke

Well said Mister. You nailed it.

[nms]

I'll wait for a firefighter to weigh in on their job tasks before judging them on what they do in a given shift and whether they are worth it. Similarly, just because one worker group has succeeded in maintaining a better working and compensation condition than others doesn't mean that everyone should aim for the lowest common denominator. Then, everyone loses.

[Coke6pk]

Agreed nms.... Do I like the fact firefighters have such a "gravy train", no. [While they do have a dangerous component to their job, less than 1% is "Running into burning buildings"]. Am I jealous.... Hell yes! Do I fault them for getting such great contracts? No, good for them... wish everyone could!

Coke

[jamincan]

I'm not saying the answer is to cut funding to fire departments; what I am saying is that the correct response to EMS being stretched thin and having difficulty maintaining adequate service levels is not to expand the mandate of the fire department and send even more money their direction, but to adequately fund EMS.

[Spokes]

Yes!!

I've always found it interesting that both Fire and Police are deemed essential services but not EMS. It really handcuffs them from a negotiations standpoint.

[danbrotherston]

I'll wait for a firefighter to weigh in on their job tasks before judging them on what they do in a given shift and whether they are worth it.  Similarly, just because one worker group has succeeded in maintaining a better working and compensation condition than others doesn't mean that everyone should aim for the lowest common denominator.  Then, everyone loses.

I don't think those doing the jobs are going to be objective in their evaluation of it--people are strongly motivated to justify their jobs as important.

What is valuable is an independent third party objective evaluation.

[tomh009]

Here is some food for thought from the employer perspective. According to Margaret Wente, the town of Thorold is spending 25% of its budget on fire services.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/...e24459593/

Thorold is a middle-class town of 18,500 in southwestern Ontario. It has 15 significant structure-related fires a year, the mayor's office says. But although its 18 firefighters don't have much to do, they make big-city money. An arbitrator recently awarded them a retroactive 9.2 per cent raise that bumped their pay to $92,119. Similar settlements have been awarded throughout the province. Most of the people who make these towns' Sunshine List (because their compensation is over $100,000) are cops and firefighters.

[Spokes]

I believe arbitrators decide salaries of both police and fire departments but not EMS.

[panamaniac]

I think that's correct - a key reason why EMS workers are appropriately paid while police and firefighters are .... not.

[Viewfromthe42]

Fire services are something like 1/3 of your city tax dollars, so that city is actually getting a good deal, relatively speaking.

[tomh009]

Fire services are something like 1/3 of your city tax dollars, so that city is actually getting a good deal, relatively speaking.

They may not have a regional government paying for police services etc.

I think in the long run, the fire service costs are not sustainable, and something will have to give.

[Ace]

Does anyone have a figure on the number of employees any of the cities have?

[Coke6pk]

There was a mayor (North Bay maybe?) that got into it with the Firefighters Union. They went to arbitration, and despite the city not being able to afford it, still got big city wages.

The mayor then said, fine, in your 24 hour shift, you will be required to be working the full 24 hours, be it attending calls for service or other assigned duties. Firefighters were told to bring in their meals from home to prepare, but grocery shopping on government time will cease. He also added that they can't afford to pay staff to sleep, so they will be expected to be awake at all times during their shift, and if they need rest, they can use their gracious amounts of sick time or speak to the union about renegotiating a shorter shift. One member asked is they can't sleep, why do they have beds in the fire hall. He replied "That's a good question. I'll have them removed and donated to a local shelter." I loved it! Never saw any follow up, but would love to know if his hard-line stance held.

Coke

[jamincan]

Sault Ste. Marie?

https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/city...ion-305499