City Centre/Young Condominiums | 17, 25 & 6 fl | U/C

[panamaniac]

$600K for 1150 sqft? That would indeed be quite expensive. And I don't think the building is particularly luxurious as compared to its competition.

That much space could be had at Arrow Lofts for at least $100G less, with parking, no?  Or have I lost touch?

[creative]

For that price you could buy my fully renovated, open concept, 2500 sq. ft., 4 bedroom home with walkout basement, backing onto conservation forest, creek, 10 min. Bike ride to grand river and 10 minute bike ride to downtown Kitchener. Attached garage plus 2 additional parking spots. Oh, and deer in our backyard.

[taylortbb]

Local condo prices are definitely up sharply this year. 2bd units under 1k interior sq ft at 1 Victoria are suddenly almost $600k.

Earlier this year I thought Charlie West was a little pricey at $615k for 1100 interior sq ft 2bd + den (with parking), but it was justified by the high floor, bundled upgrades, and large balcony. However compared to the current market it suddenly looks like quite the deal.

I won't be surprised if they manage to sell even at this price point, though I agree the Momentum projects are better value. But Momentum is mostly delivering small units, none of The One Hundred or Garment Street buildings have had large units. Charlie West and 1 Victoria have had some, but not a lot.

[tomh009]

$600K for 1150 sqft? That would indeed be quite expensive. And I don't think the building is particularly luxurious as compared to its competition.

That much space could be had at Arrow Lofts for at least $100G less, with parking, no?  Or have I lost touch?

Absolutely. And it's a nicer building, I think. But no longer quite new, and many buyers may feel that they are getting better deal with pre-construction pricing.

[danbrotherston]

For that price you could buy my fully renovated, open concept, 2500 sq. ft., 4 bedroom home with walkout basement, backing onto conservation forest, creek, 10 min. Bike ride to grand river and 10 minute bike ride to downtown Kitchener. Attached garage plus 2 additional parking spots. Oh, and deer in our backyard.

Maybe...in a suburban housing track, with an enormous yard to maintain, no walkable amenities, plus add in the cost of owning two cars (and buying one for any children you might have)...

Yeah, I'll personally take the condo downtown (although I paid ~250 for a similar older but fully renovated unit).

The point is that we shouldn't judge people on their housing choices.  If they can sell condos like that at 600k there's clearly a huge demand for housing fitting that lifestyle.  Not everyone wants to live in a suburban housing development.  Some do, and they have plenty of choices where to live.  Some do not, and they have far far less choice of where to live.

Worse, many would want to live in mid density neighbourhoods, out of large towers, but still in walkable areas with a moderate density of housing, and the have near zero options for that lifestyle in KW.

[ijmorlan]

The point is that we shouldn't judge people on their housing choices.  If they can sell condos like that at 600k there's clearly a huge demand for housing fitting that lifestyle.  Not everyone wants to live in a suburban housing development.  Some do, and they have plenty of choices where to live.  Some do not, and they have far far less choice of where to live.

Indeed, one interpretation of the low prices out in the suburbs is that they are not desireable.

Which makes one wonder, how many people would choose to live in a downtown-like space if we built enough of it?

Hard to find out though, since zoning makes it illegal to build true urban form in most of the city.

[creative]

Wow! 10 minute bike ride from downtown is a “suburban housing tract”? I actually have a small front and back yard that I enjoy maintaining. I have schools, stores and restaurants within a 10 - 15 minute walk. I never said anything negative about anyone or anything or where they choose to live. I simply made a comment comparing housing costs. Dan, maybe YOU shouldn’t judge people on their housing choices!

[tomh009]

Worse, many would want to live in mid density neighbourhoods, out of large towers, but still in walkable areas with a moderate density of housing, and the have near zero options for that lifestyle in KW.

Mid-rise apartments and stacked/unstacked townhouses are popping up in many places, but the development projects typically don't have the high profile of tall condo/apartment towers. We still need more, but the trend is right. Victoria Commons, RED, Walter, Barra, Midtown, Lancaster St townhouses, 262-282 Queen (if they can get it approved), Victoria/Margaret, 51 David, Courtland Ave townhouses, Cortez, Woodside Terraces, Southdale Ave, King & Wellington, 453 Park, 388 King St E.

I'm sure there are more that I can't think of at the moment. I do agree that there are not enough mid-rise options at this point, though, but hopefully this trend continues.

[danbrotherston]

Worse, many would want to live in mid density neighbourhoods, out of large towers, but still in walkable areas with a moderate density of housing, and the have near zero options for that lifestyle in KW.

Mid-rise apartments and stacked/unstacked townhouses are popping up in many places, but the development projects typically don't have the high profile of tall condo/apartment towers. We still need more, but the trend is right. Victoria Commons, RED, Walter, Barra, Midtown, Lancaster St townhouses, 262-282 Queen (if they can get it approved), Victoria/Margaret, 51 David, Courtland Ave townhouses, Cortez, Woodside Terraces, Southdale Ave, King & Wellington, 453 Park, 388 King St E.

I'm sure there are more that I can't think of at the moment. I do agree that there are not enough mid-rise options at this point, though, but hopefully this trend continues.

Some of those are not really what I mean by mid density, I would consider RED and Cortez to still be pretty big.  Certainly they'd garner opposition if built in an existing neighbourhood.

A few examples of the size of project I meant are here:  https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4462876,-...bfov%3D100

They're not particularly nice buildings, but they are completely within the size and scope of the neighbourhood they're within.  Driving by you'd barely even notice they aren't houses.

Others are not particularly walkable, Victoria Commons for example is far from most amenities, not really walkable.

But you're right, there exist a few, but that's the point. When only a small area is zoned for redevelopment, midrise cannot provide the density we need. The city has failed to rezone substantial areas for midrise development, so I think we'll be stuck with mainly highrise--which I don't mind, I live in a tower now, but I know others do not.

[danbrotherston]

Wow! 10 minute bike ride from downtown is a “suburban housing tract”? I actually have a small front and back yard that I enjoy maintaining. I have schools, stores and restaurants within a 10 - 15 minute walk. I never said anything negative about anyone or anything or where they choose to live. I simply made a comment comparing housing costs. Dan, maybe YOU shouldn’t judge people on their housing choices!

I guess you didn't make any judgements, and neither did I.  But you compared two housing options without consider all the other aspects of where it is.  Yes, you can easily get more sq ft and more bedrooms elsewhere, but what do you give up?  I pointed out what you give up.  I made no more judgements than you did.

Now, I don't know where you live, but what you describe is generally found in unwalkable communities.

And yes, a 10 minute bike ride from DT is generally suburban housing, in most directions except towards Waterloo or Belmont village.

[tomh009]

Some of those are not really what I mean by mid density, I would consider RED and Cortez to still be pretty big.  Certainly they'd garner opposition if built in an existing neighbourhood.

A few examples of the size of project I meant are here:  https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4462876,-...bfov%3D100

They're not particularly nice buildings, but they are completely within the size and scope of the neighbourhood they're within.  Driving by you'd barely even notice they aren't houses.

I see what you are thinking of. I used six stories as my cutoff (that's not yet a "tower" really) but you're thinking much smaller. The form you're thinking is not very popular any more, but maybe townhouse complexes like this one (on Courtland) are in the same vein:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.443437,-8...312!8i6656

The Cedar Hill neighbourhood is actually a good example of a mix of many different types of housing. While we have large protected heritage areas near the core, hopefully this kind of thing can happen more frequently in residential neighbourhoods.

[danbrotherston]

Some of those are not really what I mean by mid density, I would consider RED and Cortez to still be pretty big.  Certainly they'd garner opposition if built in an existing neighbourhood.

A few examples of the size of project I meant are here:  https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4462876,-...bfov%3D100

They're not particularly nice buildings, but they are completely within the size and scope of the neighbourhood they're within.  Driving by you'd barely even notice they aren't houses.

I see what you are thinking of. I used six stories as my cutoff (that's not yet a "tower" really) but you're thinking much smaller. The form you're thinking is not very popular any more, but maybe townhouse complexes like this one (on Courtland) are in the same vein:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.443437,-8...312!8i6656

The Cedar Hill neighbourhood is actually a good example of a mix of many different types of housing. While we have large protected heritage areas near the core, hopefully this kind of thing can happen more frequently in residential neighbourhoods.

Yeah, that is the scale of thing I'd like to see more of.  And I do think there are some being built.  My fear is that they're not being permitted in the density or design needed to really develop new neighbourhoods into walkable areas, nor are they being permitted as widely as would be ideal, specifically, not really in the existing walkable neighbourhoods (for example, I don't think any of the core neighbourhoods near downtown, uptown, or even Belmont village could have something like this built right now).

Where I see them being built, and I see this with towers too mind you, is often in areas that are totally car dependent. Which I think limits both the benefits of denser developments, and the desirability. The "Urban Towns" at Highland and Ira Needles come to mind.

Cedar Hill is a great counter example though. I did look at a condo near there when I was looking.

[tomh009]

I need to do some research on Kitchener residential zoning … but I will have to get back to you on that, it won't happen this weekend!

[Quadcities34]

Very interesting rumors swirling around this building. My friend who is an agent, went to the second Sales Event last week. They were now selling to all local and Toronto agents. He was told after the event that they only sold about 30% total, including the units that were sold during the first VIP event. Apparently they need to get to 80% sold in order to start building. He instructed his clients to cancel their deals, as he thinks the project will either get cancelled, or will be significantly delayed. Yikes!!!

[Spokes]

This feels so much like the first phase.

Awful sales, high prices. Ugh.

What is it about the momentum projects that make them so much more appealing?