Amalgamation

[ijmorlan]

Would disappear in a heartbeat, were amalgamation a real thing.  My own preference would be "Waterloo".

Agreed.. as someone who is not from around here and came to the region for university and stayed, Kitchener has always sounded extremely weird to me - like 'kitchen'. It's just odd, and I know it's a last name but still!

I remember trash cans that said “keep Kitchener as clean as a kitchen”!

[panamaniac]

Agreed.. as someone who is not from around here and came to the region for university and stayed, Kitchener has always sounded extremely weird to me - like 'kitchen'. It's just odd, and I know it's a last name but still!

I remember trash cans that said “keep Kitchener as clean as a kitchen”!

As do I - back in the day when we still washed our sidewalks.

[welltoldtales]

People are pushing for this again.

https://twitter.com/Marskell/status/994903666141417473

Someone needs to show me data where amalgamation truly worked and why people keep thinking it is going to be better for KW. All I have is a ton of data points on how it is a complete failure.

[Viewfromthe42]

If we can't fix things like the current Stop LRT group talking about not invading the village of Preston in the City of Cambridge, taking it one step further doesn't exactly convince me, even though I'm generally onside. The region still feels (like many cities) too factionalized. Everyone loves the idea of being able to get where they are going faster, but nobody wants one more car, bike, or pedestrian near their neighbourhood. We all love the green belt, but heaven help us if LRT should go near our neighbourhood, or a three-storey or multi-unit dwelling go up in a current single family home enclave.

[welltoldtales]

If we can't fix things like the current Stop LRT group talking about not invading the village of Preston in the City of Cambridge, taking it one step further doesn't exactly convince me, even though I'm generally onside. The region still feels (like many cities) too factionalized. Everyone loves the idea of being able to get where they are going faster, but nobody wants one more car, bike, or pedestrian near their neighbourhood. We all love the green belt, but heaven help us if LRT should go near our neighbourhood, or a three-storey or multi-unit dwelling go up in a current single family home enclave.

To me it's just a bad idea for the area. I haven't seen anything positive from amalgamation in any area really. Most people think it will provide us with efficiencies even though almost all amalgamation's have been really inefficient.

The other reason seems to be that it will be easier for businesses, yet we have great economic numbers for both the size of our region and compared to the rest of Ontario. So maybe what we have is actually working out very well? We have one of the highest employment rates, the lowest percentage of people living on low-income and the highest median and average wages in Canada. Maybe economists should look at Kitchener-Waterloo to see why we are doing so well and I wonder how much that has to do with the fact that two cities gives us a diversity of employment.

[KevinL]

I'd like to see more coordination between the cities (especially on active transportation and route planning) and some services should be uploaded to the Region (firefighting) but wholesale merging is not the solution.

[welltoldtales]

I'd like to see more coordination between the cities (especially on active transportation and route planning) and some services should be uploaded to the Region (firefighting) but wholesale merging is not the solution.

Totally agree. The worst active transportation stuff so far has been the region. I mean the LRT is awesome but most regional roads are absolutely brutal. Kitchener and Waterloo are really trying to work together on solutions. The planners know each other by name and meet semi-frequently. On the regional side it's a black box. I don't quite see how people think that is suddenly going to be better if it is just Kitchener and Waterloo.

Firefighting should be something like Waste Management whereby the cities outsource the job to the region. Part of the issue with firefighting has been a result of no one seeing the whole arbitration aspect coming. That has changed the nature of the costs of firefighting.

[panamaniac]

People are pushing for this again.

https://twitter.com/Marskell/status/994903666141417473

Someone needs to show me data where amalgamation truly worked and why people keep thinking it is going to be better for KW. All I have is a ton of data points on how it is a complete failure.

Marskell seems not to realize that this is not a question for Kitchener - it is up to Waterloo whether or not the issue is discussed.  They've said no and, unless or until they change their collective minds, the matter is dead (at least as a local initiative).

[tomh009]

People are pushing for this again.

https://twitter.com/Marskell/status/994903666141417473

Someone needs to show me data where amalgamation truly worked and why people keep thinking it is going to be better for KW. All I have is a ton of data points on how it is a complete failure.

I'm not going to push for amalgamation here (though I would not be vehemently opposed, either).

But I will argue that Toronto's amalgamation was not an abject failure, even if the cost savings might not have been as big as advertised. And the Star's editorial board agrees:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria...orial.html

[welltoldtales]

People are pushing for this again.

https://twitter.com/Marskell/status/994903666141417473

Someone needs to show me data where amalgamation truly worked and why people keep thinking it is going to be better for KW. All I have is a ton of data points on how it is a complete failure.

I'm not going to push for amalgamation here (though I would not be vehemently opposed, either).

But I will argue that Toronto's amalgamation was not an abject failure, even if the cost savings might not have been as big as advertised. And the Star's editorial board agrees:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria...orial.html

Was this before or after the 'burbs elected Doug Ford and then crushed the Gardiner?

[tomh009]

I'm not going to push for amalgamation here (though I would not be vehemently opposed, either).

But I will argue that Toronto's amalgamation was not an abject failure, even if the cost savings might not have been as big as advertised. And the Star's editorial board agrees:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria...orial.html

Was this before or after the 'burbs elected Doug Ford and then crushed the Gardiner?

That's democracy. In the end, we need to accept the results of democratic elections, even if we find them personally distasteful.

[danbrotherston]

Was this before or after the 'burbs elected Doug Ford and then crushed the Gardiner?

That's democracy. In the end, we need to accept the results of democratic elections, even if we find them personally distasteful.

Pure democracy is just "tyranny of the majority".  Just being democratic does not automatically make it a good system.  A democracy must still be well designed.

[welltoldtales]

Was this before or after the 'burbs elected Doug Ford and then crushed the Gardiner?

That's democracy. In the end, we need to accept the results of democratic elections, even if we find them personally distasteful.

And non-amalgamation isn't democracy? Maybe diluting a product isn't worth it? Which is sort of my point. Kitchener has spent a lot of time and money building Neighbourhood Associations and Neighbourhood programs. They are winning international awards for that work.

Specifically for it's size, Waterloo has done exceptional work cycling. They are the third Ontario city to get "Gold" in cycling and I scoff at that too, but I have also visited much of Ontario and what Waterloo has done really does compete with the best in Ontario (which is just a poor measuring stick, but you get the point). 

Keeping the cities separate allows for a diversity of identities to be created. Unique solutions to the common problems of city building and resource allocation. Amalgamation leads to "status quo" and "consensus building". It's hard enough to get 10 councillors at a table to agree, imagine 17!

And all so we can put a bigger sticker at the entrance that says we have x population? So that businesses can more freely navigate the intricacies of our governing structure? In two cities that post some of the best job numbers in the country? I think what we have is working incredibly well for businesses, even if they might not like it so much.

[Spokes]

I'd like to see more coordination between the cities (especially on active transportation and route planning) and some services should be uploaded to the Region (firefighting) but wholesale merging is not the solution.

While I think it just makes sense, but I also think it'll never happen officially.  

But I agree with KevinL's standpoint.  There are some services that should be under Regional control.  Fire is one.  Especially since EMS and Police already are.  What about libraries?

[danbrotherston]

I'd like to see more coordination between the cities (especially on active transportation and route planning) and some services should be uploaded to the Region (firefighting) but wholesale merging is not the solution.

While I think it just makes sense, but I also think it'll never happen officially.  

But I agree with KevinL's standpoint.  There are some services that should be under Regional control.  Fire is one.  Especially since EMS and Police already are.  What about libraries?

I'd actually argue libraries are a great example of why merging is a bad idea.

We have four library programs in the region, doing very different, very local things.  There is possibly the opportunity for better integration, full amalgamating would likely cost us quite a bit in terms of custom programs meeting the needs of local communities.