What does DTK need?

[danbrotherston]

Ac3r, along with most people miss the point here. The bike lane highways that they and others rant about don’t exist to make downtown better. No Dutch city has such a thing. They exist to make it more possible to exist alongside cars. The only thing we need to do is get rid of the cars. But we lack the will and courage to do so, so instead we need bike lanes. And further we will never have a truly great livable downtown. But focusing on whining about bike lanes, people miss the damn point.

You're missing the point - it's not about how you get there, it's WHY you want to go there in the first place

Facepalm.

[Kodra24]

You're missing the point - it's not about how you get there, it's WHY you want to go there in the first place

No place can be good if people can't get there in the first place, and a place that allows lots of people to drive there quickly and easily isn't a place people want to be (see: walmart parking lots). There's a reason why people want to go see the old city in philadelphia, or italian villages, or the narrow vibrant streets of tokyo - and nobody ever wants to go to the exotic Home Depot or the culturally significant new Chick-Fil-A across town. There are Real places and there are auto-centric places, and they are diametrically opposed to each other.

Downtown Kitchener is stuck between trying to make a real place, but also compromising and making it a driving-friendly place. Worst of both worlds. The tragic part is that it used to be a real place. before the parking lots. We've just culturally forgotten.

This does not make any sense to me. Why do you care how people get there? If it's nice and sunny I can bike to DTK with my kids, if it's cold and raining I want to take the car - do you think businesses care how you came to their establishment? Does the CoK care?

[neonjoe]

Businesses certainly do care. Perhaps you don't remember the uproar about the loss of parking uptown on King St due to LRT construction. Many of of the mindset that people will ONLY come if we go out of the way to make parking easy. but their thinking is stuck in the 1960s. Ideally we do want businesses to become mode agnostic. In practice eliminating parking makes all modes shorter. Many people forget that each mode of transportation does end with walking. Fewer cars parked the less distance one has to walk.

[danbrotherston]

No place can be good if people can't get there in the first place, and a place that allows lots of people to drive there quickly and easily isn't a place people want to be (see: walmart parking lots). There's a reason why people want to go see the old city in philadelphia, or italian villages, or the narrow vibrant streets of tokyo - and nobody ever wants to go to the exotic Home Depot or the culturally significant new Chick-Fil-A across town. There are Real places and there are auto-centric places, and they are diametrically opposed to each other.

Downtown Kitchener is stuck between trying to make a real place, but also compromising and making it a driving-friendly place. Worst of both worlds. The tragic part is that it used to be a real place. before the parking lots. We've just culturally forgotten.

This does not make any sense to me. Why do you care how people get there? If it's nice and sunny I can bike to DTK with my kids, if it's cold and raining I want to take the car - do you think businesses care how you came to their establishment? Does the CoK care?

Nobody is talking about how people get downtown!

This isn't complicated. When you visit fairway mall do you hang out in the parking lot or in the mall?

Traffic in downtown negatively affects the experience of being downtown. If you can't see that then I guess that explains why you're confused but most people don't like pollution, noise and the constant threat of bodily harm.

[Kodra24]

Businesses certainly do care. Perhaps you don't remember the uproar about the loss of parking uptown on King St due to LRT construction. Many of of the mindset that people will ONLY come if we go out of the way to make parking easy. but their thinking is stuck in the 1960s. Ideally we do want businesses to become mode agnostic. In practice eliminating parking makes all modes shorter. Many people forget that each mode of transportation does end with walking. Fewer cars parked the less distance one has to walk.

How are those businesses doing these days? I did hear there was quite the vacancy rate in DTK - businesses want people to visit irrespective of how they arrive, and it's obvious that as time goes on their grievances were on point

I also disagree that we (taxpayers) should subsidize private businesses downtown or anywhere for that matter

It's funny that very few people want to acknowledge the pink elephant in the room - crime, homelessness, addiction/mental health and the stigma associated with these issues (whether justified or not) are massive barriers for economic activity and prosperity, but yes cars are bad and the people driving those cars are just the worst!

[neonjoe]

Businesses certainly do care. Perhaps you don't remember the uproar about the loss of parking uptown on King St due to LRT construction. Many of of the mindset that people will ONLY come if we go out of the way to make parking easy. but their thinking is stuck in the 1960s. Ideally we do want businesses to become mode agnostic. In practice eliminating parking makes all modes shorter. Many people forget that each mode of transportation does end with walking. Fewer cars parked the less distance one has to walk.

How are those businesses doing these days? I did hear there was quite the vacancy rate in DTK - businesses want people to visit irrespective of how they arrive, and it's obvious that as time goes on their grievances were on point

I also disagree that we (taxpayers) should subsidize private businesses downtown or anywhere for that matter

It's funny that very few people want to acknowledge the pink elephant in the room - crime, homelessness, addiction/mental health and the stigma associated with these issues (whether justified or not) are massive barriers for economic activity and prosperity, but yes cars are bad and the people driving those cars are just the worst!

I mentioned uptown, directly where the LRT is running. In DTK the businesses pushed to not have King become a transit mall and we have this circuitious route. In uptown where the LRT line is directly in front of the businesses and the on street parking was lost they are all leased or have closed and trended towards hip/upscale since the LRT opened.

[tomh009]

Businesses certainly do care. Perhaps you don't remember the uproar about the loss of parking uptown on King St due to LRT construction. Many of of the mindset that people will ONLY come if we go out of the way to make parking easy. but their thinking is stuck in the 1960s. Ideally we do want businesses to become mode agnostic. In practice eliminating parking makes all modes shorter. Many people forget that each mode of transportation does end with walking. Fewer cars parked the less distance one has to walk.

How are those businesses doing these days? I did hear there was quite the vacancy rate in DTK - businesses want people to visit irrespective of how they arrive, and it's obvious that as time goes on their grievances were on point

I also disagree that we (taxpayers) should subsidize private businesses downtown or anywhere for that matter

There has been no exodus of retail or restaurants from downtown Kitchener since the LRT construction. There is empty retail space, but the vast majority of that is new construction. (And there is a lot of office space vacancy, but that has nothing to do with the LRT or parking.)

Free parking is also a form of subsidy...

[Kodra24]

You're missing the point - it's not about how you get there, it's WHY you want to go there in the first place

Facepalm.

Right back at ya - I don't think I've read a single post of yours where I haven't either laughed or shook my head

Opposite ends of the spectrum that's for sure

[Rainrider22]

Facepalm.

Right back at ya - I don't think I've read a single post of yours where I haven't either laughed or shook my head

Opposite ends of the spectrum that's for sure

I will sit with you lol

[danbrotherston]

Right back at ya - I don't think I've read a single post of yours where I haven't either laughed or shook my head

Opposite ends of the spectrum that's for sure

I will sit with you lol

That’s fine. You two go enjoy sitting on the side of a highway. This is not a controversial opinion that it isn't a pleasant place to be.

But the facepalm was about the complete misrepresentation or misunderstanding of my comment.

[Momo26]

I'm glad I found this thread. We have been talking about this in some detail in the Kitchener Urban thread. I encourage some of the members who don't frequent that to check the last 2 to 3 pages of the GRT Redevelopment thread. I think there are some good ideas there.