Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[Momo26]

Serious question, how much has DTK pop grown by since say 2014? A decade ago.

I think 1Vic and well before that Kaufman lofts were built.

Since then over a dozen high rises built or being built (by 2026)

[nms]

It's not a perfect match, but Statistics Canada lists 2021 data for the Kitchener-Centre riding.  Between 2016 and 2021, the population increased from 113,452 to 105,258. That's an increase of 8,194.

Environics released an analysis in 2022 prepared for the Economic Developers Council of Ontario. (a 40 page PDF).  This particular study uses a "Main Street boundary" of "City Centre & Innovation Districts", roughly the CN track to the north (but not Kaufman lofts), Francis St/Weber to the east, Frederick/Borden to the south, and Joseph St back to Victoria St.  It then adds a 15-minute walk time which covers more of what people might think of as Downtown Kitchener.

Environics counts a population of 31,518 in 15,704 households (and about 27,275 are 14+). Nearly 30% of the population is between 25 and 39 years of age. 65% live in apartments which captures the new developments, but just over half of the housing stock is over 60 years old.

Cherry-picking some of the data (since it is a 40 page data-rich document), the population as a whole spends on average:

• $3,000 on tobacco and alcohol
  
• $9,172 on food (combines $3,165 in restaurants and $6,007 in stores)
  
• $3,071 on recreation
  

Keeping in mind the questions were asked in mid/post-Covid in 2021 or 2022, the top activities that people were look forward to included:
Socializing

• Dating (12%)
  
• Going to restaurants, bars or night clubs (52%)
  
• Having physical contact with family & friends (55%)
  
• Group activities (37%)
  
• Partying (16%)
  
• Seeing family and friends in person (62%)
  

Entertainment

• Attending events, festivals or concerts (40%)
  
• Attending sports events (excludes pro sports) (14%)
  
• Attending pro sports (26%)
  
• Going to movies (43%)
  

The same study also records visitors from southern Ontario in 2019, 2020 and 2021:
Spring - 404,400 (201,000 in 2020) (212,400 in 2021)
Summer - 304,200 (277,130 in 2020) (350,100 in 2021)
Fall - 347,000 (255,150 in 2020) (362,000 in 2021)
Winter - 363,300 (294,100 in 2020) (264,200 in 2021)

Of that, about 18,500 to 20,000 visitors came from within the City Centre and Innovation District in each part of the year.

[Momo26]

Thanks for that info!

I think its twofold - increasing population that lives in DTK (and perhaps DTK peripheral), and increasing visitors. A vibrant downtown can consist in part by visitors/guests and shorter term stays (doesn't help there is a gross lack of hotels in DTK).

[danbrotherston]

Thanks for that info!

I think its twofold - increasing population that lives in DTK (and perhaps DTK peripheral), and increasing visitors. A vibrant downtown can consist in part by visitors/guests and shorter term stays (doesn't help there is a gross lack of hotels in DTK).

Both matter, but the latter only matters in certain context. Visitors matter only when they are going to Downtown itself, rather than something else, like work, or a play or a restaurant. In these other roles, they will reduce their interaction with downtown possibly even to become a net harm on downtown if their destination has parking, because they will drive through downtown, harming it, then park and never interact with downtown as a place.

People who live in downtown ALWAYS experience downtown as a place because it is the place where they live. But I don't think you can really make a downtown survive just on residents, there simply aren't enough people or at least, not without going to some Torontonian densities.

In our city here, relatively few people *live* in the centre. It's dense, but not high--mostly low rise. Relatively few people live there. But it's always busy. Part of this is cultural, people here don't demonize the centre as is very common in Canada. Nobody has ever suggested that you'd be unsafe to be in the centre (in fact, there are other neighbourhoods that people say this about). But at the same time, cars are heavily restricted in the centre. The main street has no cars, the inner ring has almost none, basically all the traffic is directed to the outer ring and a handful of access routes.

This means the whole centre, all 100acres of it or so, is acting like a power centre/outdoor mall. It has the same experience, shops, restaurants, food courts. The idea of the suburban mall certainly was a great analogue for a city centre (something I never experienced before coming here).

But compared with DTK, I can certainly see why it isn't a destination in the same way as here. It's dirty, rundown, noisy, polluted, and dangerous. And it is so for exactly one reason...the cars.  They create tire dirty which makes everything dirty, they hit signs, and posts and planters breaking them, they damage the pavement making the pavement look old and broken, they create the noise, they create the pollution, they endanger people. And yeah, people are gonna blame the homeless folks, and they aren't improving the experience, but only a naive fool (which is to say virtually everyone) thinks homeless people are more dangerous than drivers. No homeless person ever killed anyone while I lived downtown, but drunk drivers killed half a dozen. I made multiple statements to police about drunk drivers, and that's absolutely nothing about the constant non-drunk dangerous driving.

So yeah, I have nothing to contribute here, I'd like DTK to get better, but the only way I see it getting better is a complete non-starter. Maybe more cultural elements would help, I sincerely doubt an arena would do anything (it would be busy on game night (maybe) and an empty place otherwise, and that's if it doesn't have attached parking), but none of that would change anything about the things which I don't like about downtown.

And yeah, the Dutch aren't immune either. Vathorst, the suburb we live in, and built since 2000 onwards, has a centre as well, but that one permits cars in half the centre. It's certainly busy and eventful, but it feels a whole lot more like Kitchener than I'd like, and it doesn't even have through traffic, just a shit-ton of (free) parking.

[westwardloo]

Need the arena and a convention centre DTK... simple

This! Concerts, sporting events and conventions could be a huge boost to the dtk economy. As it stands a lots of these events, concerts and conventions choose London or Hamilton as host, since they have the facilities. Unfortunately, in the current political climate we would need a wealthy person to initiate a contribute a portion of the costs. 

I think an ideal spot for the new arena could be the parking lot currently owned by Manulife at Joseph, charles, Water and Francis. Maybe the city could negotiate a land swap with manulife for a section of the Bramm yard lands. Obviously this is the dreamer in me thinking.

[Rainrider22]

Hmmm you read my mind. I was thinking exactly that. Build arena on the empty parking lot. Demolish the former KingCentre and build a hotel convention centre with room for ground level businesses. You could even incorporate condos in a tower as part of the build.

[clasher]

If there was a business case for a convention centre surely there would be some private businesses looking to build a place. I'm also skeptical that a downtown rink would do much if people are scared to come downtown and walk around, they're just going to drive to the game, park, and go into the arena to eat/drink.

[panamaniac]

If there was a business case for a convention centre surely there would be some private businesses looking to build a place. I'm also skeptical that a downtown rink would do much if people are scared to come downtown and walk around, they're just going to drive to the game, park, and go into the arena to eat/drink.

Most Canadian convention centres are mostly/entirely public projects, are they not?  As for the rink, you seem to assume considerable on-site parking, which would not be the case.

[westwardloo]

If there was a business case for a convention centre surely there would be some private businesses looking to build a place. I'm also skeptical that a downtown rink would do much if people are scared to come downtown and walk around, they're just going to drive to the game, park, and go into the arena to eat/drink.

Most Canadian convention centres are mostly/entirely public projects, are they not?  As for the rink, you seem to assume considerable on-site parking, which would not be the case.

That is correct, London, Hamilton, Ottawa even Vancouver convention centre are all government owned.  The Toronto Metro convention centre was built by CN real estate a crown corporation.  The problem is that there is no visionary in our region that would like to picture our Region as a destination for these types of facilitates and with we did propose it  there would be fight for which city it would be in. 

I feel like anyone that doesn't currently feel safe walking downtown kitchener are not the target audience of an urban revitalization project. DTK is really not a scary place.  On a game/ concert day, it's not like everyone would eat or shop in dtk kitchener, but if 10-20% did that would still be a huge boost to the local economy.

[Momo26]

I have the vision for this. Many on this forum do. Sometimes though it feels like the juice is not worth the squeeze.

[danbrotherston]

If there was a business case for a convention centre surely there would be some private businesses looking to build a place. I'm also skeptical that a downtown rink would do much if people are scared to come downtown and walk around, they're just going to drive to the game, park, and go into the arena to eat/drink.

Most Canadian convention centres are mostly/entirely public projects, are they not?  As for the rink, you seem to assume considerable on-site parking, which would not be the case.

I think the assumption that there would be limited on-site parking is entirely unjustified. I know there are some forces who want limited parking. But those forces that want unlimited free parking are enormously powerful. It's foolish to believe they wouldn't win. I mean, just look at this forum, which is in theory entirely progressive, but contains at least one person arguing for a 4-5 storey underground parking facility...

...

I feel like anyone that doesn't currently feel safe walking downtown kitchener are not the target audience of an urban revitalization project. DTK is really not a scary place.  On a game/ concert day, it's not like everyone would eat or shop in dtk kitchener, but if 10-20% did that would still be a huge boost to the local economy.

I don't think this is true....I think downtown should be for everyone. And really, downtown won't do well if the majority of the population is afraid to come downtown. Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix people, and that is the problem, much more than downtown. But leaving them out of the "target audience" certainly isn't going to help.

As for "a huge boost to the local economy", I wish we'd stop framing everything in the context of "economy". I mean, sure it would bring money downtown, but leaving aside the direct costs of building such a huge facility, what are the opportunity cost, what else could we have built instead? Would housing result in more than 10-20% of those staying downtown? Would other resources have enriched downtown to a greater extent. But lets also leave that aside, what harm does a huge number of people showing up on a few dozen game days a year, all driving downtown, parking for a few hours and 90% leaving without spending a dime outside of the arena? I think that would actually be net harmful to downtown, not just because of the traffic, but also because of how it shifts the conversation. Most suburban people's (you know, the ones who the pols listen to) experience of downtown would be frustrating traffic and actual parking problems (you know, as opposed to the imaginary ones we have now). This kind of thing shifts the conversation and centres the issues faced by transient people in the city. (And yeah, I call them transient, because that's what the word means, despite it usually being used as a euphemism for other people).

Ultimately, IMO the key to improving downtown is to make it a place people want to be. If the city does that, all the rest will come. Until that happens, it won't matter what else is done.

[Kodra24]

Interesting, a lot of posters on this forum hate the suburbanites but want their money, go figure

Downtown is not safe, it's still very much a work in progress - the sooner this is realized and addressed the better

[MidTowner]

Interesting, a lot of posters on this forum hate the suburbanites but want their money, go figure

Downtown is not safe, it's still very much a work in progress - the sooner this is realized and addressed the better

This is a matter of perspective. I think downtown is safe, I walk down there with my young children all the time. Sometimes we're at risk of being struck by a car driven by someone who doesn't obey the rules, but generally there's less of that downtown than in other parts of downtown.

It is a work in progress, of course, it could get better, and everywhere is always changing.

[MidTowner]

Most Canadian convention centres are mostly/entirely public projects, are they not?  As for the rink, you seem to assume considerable on-site parking, which would not be the case.

I think the assumption that there would be limited on-site parking is entirely unjustified. I know there are some forces who want limited parking. But those forces that want unlimited free parking are enormously powerful. It's foolish to believe they wouldn't win. I mean, just look at this forum, which is in theory entirely progressive, but contains at least one person arguing for a 4-5 storey underground parking facility...

...

I feel like anyone that doesn't currently feel safe walking downtown kitchener are not the target audience of an urban revitalization project. DTK is really not a scary place.  On a game/ concert day, it's not like everyone would eat or shop in dtk kitchener, but if 10-20% did that would still be a huge boost to the local economy.

I don't think this is true....I think downtown should be for everyone. And really, downtown won't do well if the majority of the population is afraid to come downtown. Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix people, and that is the problem, much more than downtown. But leaving them out of the "target audience" certainly isn't going to help.

As for "a huge boost to the local economy", I wish we'd stop framing everything in the context of "economy". I mean, sure it would bring money downtown, but leaving aside the direct costs of building such a huge facility, what are the opportunity cost, what else could we have built instead? Would housing result in more than 10-20% of those staying downtown? Would other resources have enriched downtown to a greater extent. But lets also leave that aside, what harm does a huge number of people showing up on a few dozen game days a year, all driving downtown, parking for a few hours and 90% leaving without spending a dime outside of the arena? I think that would actually be net harmful to downtown, not just because of the traffic, but also because of how it shifts the conversation. Most suburban people's (you know, the ones who the pols listen to) experience of downtown would be frustrating traffic and actual parking problems (you know, as opposed to the imaginary ones we have now). This kind of thing shifts the conversation and centres the issues faced by transient people in the city. (And yeah, I call them transient, because that's what the word means, despite it usually being used as a euphemism for other people).

Ultimately, IMO the key to improving downtown is to make it a place people want to be. If the city does that, all the rest will come. Until that happens, it won't matter what else is done.

Yes, either an area or convention centre in downtown Kitchener would have tonnes of associated parking for sure.

It could be done well and add to downtown, but there is no guarantee. London has an OHL arena downtown, and the situation is as you describe: people drive, park, watch a game, leave. Some might buy a drink or two or even buy a meal. Most don't, and there are only 34 games a year. You get a few concerts, yes, and there will be some spinoff. There's no guarantee how much.

London has a convention centre downtown, too. It's within a very short (2-5 minutes) walk of three hotels, and I think that's the extent of what most convention-goers see of London. That's if they stay overnight. If they drive in for the day, the only thing they'll see is the acres of parking on three sides of the convention centre.

We would not necessarily make the same mistakes. But nor is a convention centre a silver bullet or even something guaranteed to be a positive.

[westwardloo]

MAybe I was being a little too frank with my response, but If people don't feel safe now in dtk, I don't think they are the type of person that is ever going to "feel" safe in an urban environment. Just because we add more residents or events or things that will draw people downtown, does not mean we are going to get rid of the "grit" that comes with literally every urban core in canada.

As for what DTK needs it is obviously a combination of a lot off things, but only investing in residential units is not going to magically save DTK. I think it is a net positive, but people need things to do. Also it would be nice to draw people from outside the region into our cores. Right know I can not think of many reasons for someone from hamilton to come the kitchener.