864-872 King St W | 55, 44, 38, 16 fl | proposed

[ac3r]

There is actually a huge amount of potential park space right in the area - so much so that it could almost rival Victoria Park if properly utilized. This forum thinks parking lots are bad, but wait until you learn what a cemetery is.

Thinking that private developers should be responsible for providing public recreation space is lol...??? Public parks should be a public responsibility. But like many things, they try to push the burden on the private sector. You want to build a 58 floor skyscraper with apartments? Okay, how many affordable housing units will there be? 2? Sounds great. Oh, a patch of grass with 2 benches and a shrub? Amazing, no need to have the City of Kitchener parks planners do any work!

[westwardloo]

There is actually a huge amount of potential park space right in the area - so much so that it could almost rival Victoria Park if properly utilized. This forum thinks parking lots are bad, but wait until you learn what a cemetery is.

Thinking that private developers should be responsible for providing public recreation space is lol...??? Public parks should be a public responsibility. But like many things, they try to push the burden on the private sector. You want to build a 58 floor skyscraper with apartments? Okay, how many affordable housing units will there be? 2? Sounds great. Oh, a patch of grass with 2 benches and a shrub? Amazing, no need to have the City of Kitchener parks planners do any work!

I am glad someone brought this up. Image how great midtown could be if we removed Mount Hope cemetery and made it into a central park.  Or the east end if we removed first mennonite/ st. peters cemetery.  Cemeteries are an incredibly inefficient use of space in a city. Wish we had the balls to do what San Francisco did in 1912 and ban them/ move all existing cemeteries to make room for park space.

[MidTowner]

I am glad someone brought this up. Image how great midtown could be if we removed Mount Hope cemetery and made it into a central park.  Or the east end if we removed first mennonite/ st. peters cemetery.  Cemeteries are an incredibly inefficient use of space in a city. Wish we had the balls to do what San Francisco did in 1912 and ban them/ move all existing cemeteries to make room for park space.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure one way or the other, but specifically with Mount Hope Cemetery, we should have the conversation. It's 25 acres right in the heart of the city. The amount of recreation that goes on there already speaks to the demand.

I would be scared that there would be pressure on the municipalities, if the cemetery was moved, to allow some of that land to be developed. Whereas now, it is at least green space, just not very efficient recreation space.

[MidTowner]

Thinking that private developers should be responsible for providing public recreation space is lol...??? Public parks should be a public responsibility.

Private developers should not be responsible for providing public recreation space. The City of Kitchener should provide recreation space to its residents. The Planning Act allows it to require a developer to convey a portion of the land to the city to be used as recreation space, and that's what it should do, rather than accept cash in lieu.

In practice, that would mean we would have more parkettes, but these can be well-planned and potentially really valuable. With hundreds of new residents on Pine Street, why shouldn't there be a few benches and some greenspace, or even a small playground? But I agree that the private sector shouldn't be required or trusted to do it, the city should.

[panamaniac]

I am glad someone brought this up. Image how great midtown could be if we removed Mount Hope cemetery and made it into a central park.  Or the east end if we removed first mennonite/ st. peters cemetery.  Cemeteries are an incredibly inefficient use of space in a city. Wish we had the balls to do what San Francisco did in 1912 and ban them/ move all existing cemeteries to make room for park space.

I'm not so sure one way or the other, but specifically with Mount Hope Cemetery, we should have the conversation. It's 25 acres right in the heart of the city. The amount of recreation that goes on there already speaks to the demand.

I would be scared that there would be pressure on the municipalities, if the cemetery was moved, to allow some of that land to be developed. Whereas now, it is at least green space, just not very efficient recreation space.
[/quote]

I would think the chances are nil.  Apart from heritage considerations, it is still an operating cemetery.  Public oppostion would be intense.

Now, the honking big parking lot between the hospital and SunLife might be an interesting possibility ...

[ac3r]

Now, the honking big parking lot between the hospital and SunLife might be an interesting possibility ...

From what I know, the parking lot is primarily used by Grand River Hospital employees these days, with Sunlife only using a small bit of it (in addition to both their parking garage and I think a small underground parking area) due to a lot of them now just working from home or only coming into the office when necessary. So...whenever the new hospital gets opened and the existing hospital begins to see less patients/visitors/staff there, perhaps there could be a chance that gets turned into a park. It'd be a nice space to make one, with two LRT stations just minutes away as well as the trail that runs along Belmont providing easy access not to mention future residential density that is 100% going to happen around here.

However, since Sunlife owns, it I wouldn't be surprised if they would immediately say no to that. There was that rather large condo project directly beside the office tower that never went anywhere as well as the project slowly underway at their other former office complex on Westmount. Sunlife is, of course, in the financial industry so they understand the value of the land they own. Unless the cities paid fair price for the land or convinced Sunlife to donate/collaborate on it, I can't see them not seeking as much money as possible. Plus...the border between the two cities runs between that parking lot I think, so that'd open up another can of worms to figure out.

Car hatred aside, that parking lot does see use and provides value to two extremely important (and some of the largest) employers in Waterloo Region so it does have tangible value even if it's a sea of asphalt. In contrast, dozens of acres containing hundreds of bones and rotting corpses provides...nothing. If anywhere could be considered for park space, a place like this is perfect, especially when you consider the long-term urban planning ideas the cities and region have for midtown: there is a lot of underutilized space here and in 30-40 years time, there will be skyscrapers and midrise buildings all over this little stretch of King Street. I can't think of any better place to put an absolutely massive public park that will last generations, which would act as a shared space for residents of both cities, than right here. One quick look at a map shows just how little space we have to play with for civic institutions.

The scary thing is, we are the generation that has been granted the task to define and direct the course of this region for the next century. The changes taking shape right now are equal to those that took place when this area was growing. Those before us were wise when they made Victoria and Waterloo Parks where they are. The question is whether we will be smart enough to take this opportunity to create a new park (and everything else) necessary to support citizens over the next 100+ years. Probably not. I'm sure we'll fumble and in 2080 they'll be wondering what the fuck we were thinking.

However, I think if the idea to turn this cemetery into a park was suggested to the public, the outrage would be absolutely wild. Every boomer, white Judaeo-Christian and conservative leaning citizen (referring to them, since they are groups that still place "value" on the concept of burying a body in a box and dumping a stone on top) would have a meltdown about the sheer idea of digging up bodies from their "resting place" to build parks, bike lanes and homes and it would be basically dead on arrival. It probably wouldn't even be worth the effort or cost to look into and propose this idea, because I don't think most people would accept it. It's almost a guarantee council would unanimously vote against it even if it was put up for vote as well, since they tend to only vote in favour for what will keep them having a job...

[Acitta]

Now, the honking big parking lot between the hospital and SunLife might be an interesting possibility ...

From what I know, the parking lot is primarily used by Grand River Hospital employees these days, with Sunlife only using a small bit of it (in addition to both their parking garage and I think a small underground parking area) due to a lot of them now just working from home or only coming into the office when necessary. So...whenever the new hospital gets opened and the existing hospital begins to see less patients/visitors/staff there, perhaps there could be a chance that gets turned into a park. It'd be a nice space to make one, with two LRT stations just minutes away as well as the trail that runs along Belmont providing easy access not to mention future residential density that is 100% going to happen around here.

However, since Sunlife owns, it I wouldn't be surprised if they would immediately say no to that. There was that rather large condo project directly beside the office tower that never went anywhere as well as the project slowly underway at their other former office complex on Westmount. Sunlife is, of course, in the financial industry so they understand the value of the land they own. Unless the cities paid fair price for the land or convinced Sunlife to donate/collaborate on it, I can't see them not seeking as much money as possible. Plus...the border between the two cities runs between that parking lot I think, so that'd open up another can of worms to figure out.

Car hatred aside, that parking lot does see use and provides value to two extremely important (and some of the largest) employers in Waterloo Region so it does have tangible value even if it's a sea of asphalt. In contrast, dozens of acres containing hundreds of bones and rotting corpses provides...nothing. If anywhere could be considered for park space, a place like this is perfect, especially when you consider the long-term urban planning ideas the cities and region have for midtown: there is a lot of underutilized space here and in 30-40 years time, there will be skyscrapers and midrise buildings all over this little stretch of King Street. I can't think of any better place to put an absolutely massive public park that will last generations, which would act as a shared space for residents of both cities, than right here. One quick look at a map shows just how little space we have to play with for civic institutions.

The scary thing is, we are the generation that has been granted the task to define and direct the course of this region for the next century. The changes taking shape right now are equal to those that took place when this area was growing. Those before us were wise when they made Victoria and Waterloo Parks where they are. The question is whether we will be smart enough to take this opportunity to create a new park (and everything else) necessary to support citizens over the next 100+ years. Probably not. I'm sure we'll fumble and in 2080 they'll be wondering what the fuck we were thinking.

However, I think if the idea to turn this cemetery into a park was suggested to the public, the outrage would be absolutely wild. Every boomer, white Judaeo-Christian and conservative leaning citizen (referring to them, since they are groups that still place "value" on the concept of burying a body in a box and dumping a stone on top) would have a meltdown about the sheer idea of digging up bodies from their "resting place" to build parks, bike lanes and homes and it would be basically dead on arrival. It probably wouldn't even be worth the effort or cost to look into and propose this idea, because I don't think most people would accept it. It's almost a guarantee council would unanimously vote against it even if it was put up for vote as well, since they tend to only vote in favour for what will keep them having a job...

I am an atheist and not originally from the Region, but if I had ancestors buried there, I would still object to them being arbitrarily dug up.

[plam]

I am an atheist and not originally from the Region, but if I had ancestors buried there, I would still object to them being arbitrarily dug up.

Wellington dug up a cemetary in the 1960s but for cars, not parks. Peak 1960s.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/ne...ay-project

[clasher]

Graves get relocated for highways abd subdivisions often enough, it's not without precedent.

[panamaniac]

Now, the honking big parking lot between the hospital and SunLife might be an interesting possibility ...

From what I know, the parking lot is primarily used by Grand River Hospital employees these days, with Sunlife only using a small bit of it (in addition to both their parking garage and I think a small underground parking area) due to a lot of them now just working from home or only coming into the office when necessary. So...whenever the new hospital gets opened and the existing hospital begins to see less patients/visitors/staff there, perhaps there could be a chance that gets turned into a park. It'd be a nice space to make one, with two LRT stations just minutes away as well as the trail that runs along Belmont providing easy access not to mention future residential density that is 100% going to happen around here.

However, since Sunlife owns, it I wouldn't be surprised if they would immediately say no to that. There was that rather large condo project directly beside the office tower that never went anywhere as well as the project slowly underway at their other former office complex on Westmount. Sunlife is, of course, in the financial industry so they understand the value of the land they own. Unless the cities paid fair price for the land or convinced Sunlife to donate/collaborate on it, I can't see them not seeking as much money as possible. Plus...the border between the two cities runs between that parking lot I think, so that'd open up another can of worms to figure out.

Car hatred aside, that parking lot does see use and provides value to two extremely important (and some of the largest) employers in Waterloo Region so it does have tangible value even if it's a sea of asphalt. In contrast, dozens of acres containing hundreds of bones and rotting corpses provides...nothing. If anywhere could be considered for park space, a place like this is perfect, especially when you consider the long-term urban planning ideas the cities and region have for midtown: there is a lot of underutilized space here and in 30-40 years time, there will be skyscrapers and midrise buildings all over this little stretch of King Street. I can't think of any better place to put an absolutely massive public park that will last generations, which would act as a shared space for residents of both cities, than right here. One quick look at a map shows just how little space we have to play with for civic institutions.

The scary thing is, we are the generation that has been granted the task to define and direct the course of this region for the next century. The changes taking shape right now are equal to those that took place when this area was growing. Those before us were wise when they made Victoria and Waterloo Parks where they are. The question is whether we will be smart enough to take this opportunity to create a new park (and everything else) necessary to support citizens over the next 100+ years. Probably not. I'm sure we'll fumble and in 2080 they'll be wondering what the fuck we were thinking.

However, I think if the idea to turn this cemetery into a park was suggested to the public, the outrage would be absolutely wild. Every boomer, white Judaeo-Christian and conservative leaning citizen (referring to them, since they are groups that still place "value" on the concept of burying a body in a box and dumping a stone on top) would have a meltdown about the sheer idea of digging up bodies from their "resting place" to build parks, bike lanes and homes and it would be basically dead on arrival. It probably wouldn't even be worth the effort or cost to look into and propose this idea, because I don't think most people would accept it. It's almost a guarantee council would unanimously vote against it even if it was put up for vote as well, since they tend to only vote in favour for what will keep them having a job...

From what I know, the parking lot is primarily used by Grand River Hospital employees these days, with Sunlife only using a small bit of it (in addition to both their parking garage and I think a small underground parking area) due to a lot of them now just working from home or only coming into the office when necessary. So...whenever the new hospital gets opened and the existing hospital begins to see less patients/visitors/staff there, perhaps there could be a chance that gets turned into a park. It'd be a nice space to make one, with two LRT stations just minutes away as well as the trail that runs along Belmont providing easy access not to mention future residential density that is 100% going to happen around here.

However, since Sunlife owns, it I wouldn't be surprised if they would immediately say no to that. There was that rather large condo project directly beside the office tower that never went anywhere as well as the project slowly underway at their other former office complex on Westmount. Sunlife is, of course, in the financial industry so they understand the value of the land they own. Unless the cities paid fair price for the land or convinced Sunlife to donate/collaborate on it, I can't see them not seeking as much money as possible. Plus...the border between the two cities runs between that parking lot I think, so that'd open up another can of worms to figure out.

Car hatred aside, that parking lot does see use and provides value to two extremely important (and some of the largest) employers in Waterloo Region so it does have tangible value even if it's a sea of asphalt. In contrast, dozens of acres containing hundreds of bones and rotting corpses provides...nothing. If anywhere could be considered for park space, a place like this is perfect, especially when you consider the long-term urban planning ideas the cities and region have for midtown: there is a lot of underutilized space here and in 30-40 years time, there will be skyscrapers and midrise buildings all over this little stretch of King Street. I can't think of any better place to put an absolutely massive public park that will last generations, which would act as a shared space for residents of both cities, than right here. One quick look at a map shows just how little space we have to play with for civic institutions.

The scary thing is, we are the generation that has been granted the task to define and direct the course of this region for the next century. The changes taking shape right now are equal to those that took place when this area was growing. Those before us were wise when they made Victoria and Waterloo Parks where they are. The question is whether we will be smart enough to take this opportunity to create a new park (and everything else) necessary to support citizens over the next 100+ years. Probably not. I'm sure we'll fumble and in 2080 they'll be wondering what the fuck we were thinking.

However, I think if the idea to turn this cemetery into a park was suggested to the public, the outrage would be absolutely wild. Every boomer, white Judaeo-Christian and conservative leaning citizen (referring to them, since they are groups that still place "value" on the concept of burying a body in a box and dumping a stone on top) would have a meltdown about the sheer idea of digging up bodies from their "resting place" to build parks, bike lanes and homes and it would be basically dead on arrival. It probably wouldn't even be worth the effort or cost to look into and propose this idea, because I don't think most people would accept it. It's almost a guarantee council would unanimously vote against it even if it was put up for vote as well, since they tend to only vote in favour for what will keep them having a job...

I am an atheist and not originally from the Region, but if I had ancestors buried there, I would still object to them being arbitrarily dug up.

You and thousands of other locals with family buried there - some of them probably planning to be buried there themselves.  I assume that, at least since the City took on the cemetery in the 1950s, that burial plots came with a contract for perpetual care.

[creative]

Concert Real Estate Corporation and Sun Life Financial are pleased to announce that Concert has agreed to purchase Sun Life's Canadian headquarters located at 227 King Street South in Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario.Oct 2, 2014

https://www.concertproperties.com/about/...%20Ontario.

[KevinL]

I can definitely see that parking lot replaced, but a park seems unlikely, at least on the entirety or even majority of it. That close to an Ion station will mean a dense development of some kind, especially toward the southeast end.

[cherrypark]

I think its reasonable to say that the cities need to do more to budget for and acquire land for more park space with the piles of money generated from DCs (instead of that funnelling to enormous rec centres on the periphery...), while also asking developers to main even a marginal attempt to make their ground level engagements with the city better and a nicer place to be.

It's not perfect, but even the Bauer Lofts up the road are a decent example of how some pedestrianized space with underground parking can animate a small commercial area off the road frontage. Sample for the small POPS at the Caroline Residences with the IHT link passing through.

[bravado]

I don’t see a world where cities find more budget space for parks because all the messaging I see in local groups is:

1: I want to pay lower taxes at literally any cost, public services are a waste of money, I will provide my own private services instead
2: “anything public is just ruined by druggies”
3: nobody goes to parks anymore, just get a backyard

It’s really hard to beat some of these cynical brainworms in the suburban mind in 2024.

[ac3r]

I am an atheist and not originally from the Region, but if I had ancestors buried there, I would still object to them being arbitrarily dug up.

I think most people would feel the same at first. The burial of a human body has been part of human civilization for thousands of years. It's just what we do and we now have an ingrained idea of not disturbing one's remains. But we also do lots of other things with them. People are cremated, sometimes buried at sea (and even "turned into" reefs) and there are newer, rather unique methods such as what some call a living urn in which the ashes of a cremated body are put in a biodegradable urn with a plant/tree sprout or seed, then planted and in a manner of speaking, get reborn as a new form of life. The prospect of digging up hundreds of bodies and reburying them elsewhere is a hard thing to accept.

But at the same time, a reasonable person should ideally be able to come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea to do if it was to benefit society at large and future generations to come, though seeing it that way requires not thinking emotionally (a challenge for most) and thinking rationally. If people are able to collectively agree that huge parking lots, industrial parks, highways, suburban subdivisions are a bad thing for everyone and everything, then they should also be able to see that a cemetery in the middle of a large urban centre is one of the worst uses of land imaginable when space in urban places is finite. As another post mentioned, San Francisco once banned cemeteries in the 20th century and moved many remains outside the city (and I think, to this day, it's still illegal to bury anyone within the city). Would anyone who is sensible these days argue that it was a horrible idea to do that? Probably not, because that land was able to be reutilized to build one of the greatest cities on this continent. It was just a matter of good vision, planning and land use.