What does DTK need?

[tomh009]

Build houses. Build rehabilitation facilities. And also build a new framework of interpretation and solutions that can actually have a greater chance of success, because our hands off approach sure as heck isn't doing much.

Our current provincial government surely isn't going to fund all that.

[plam]

Forced treatment is hard and also there may be a lack of resources to implement it. There certainly is in NZ and the problems are the same everywhere. See this:

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/07-10-2...lth-system

[bravado]

Not to mention the resources didn't exist for voluntary treatment (the current system), so what's the plan from these 'lock em up' types? Are they really willing to pay tax money for addicts before they fix things like hallway medicine and family doctor shortages? Not a good political look for them.

OR: They don't actually intend to do anything since the cost is obviously greater than the status quo, they just want to look tough on crime and let out some genuine frustration about a gigantic society-wide problem that we don't actually control.

[ijmorlan]

Not to mention the resources didn't exist for voluntary treatment (the current system), so what's the plan from these 'lock em up' types? Are they really willing to pay tax money for addicts before they fix things like hallway medicine and family doctor shortages? Not a good political look for them.

OR: They don't actually intend to do anything since the cost is obviously greater than the status quo, they just want to look tough on crime and let out some genuine frustration about a gigantic society-wide problem that we don't actually control.

This is probably the best point, actually. Most involuntary treatment wouldn’t even be needed if better resources were available up front.

[ac3r]

We need a combination of the two, really. Voluntary treatment only works for a specific segment of people who are willing to admit themselves to it and follow through. But for many that is like trying to swim against tides pulling you deeper into the sea. I don't know how many of you personally know addicts, have been personally addicted or even just used hard/addictive drugs before but it's rarely as easy as accepting the help and then coming out of a program some weeks/months later all cured, ready to go back to work and hang out with friends and family. For many, they will choose the addiction over the recovery because it's easier. And many are so fk'd in the head to begin with that they can't even reason that help = good.

As for the cost to society, it already costs us a ton of money:

According to the Canadian Costs of Substance Use and Harms 2007-2020 report, substance use and its related harms from all substances cost Canadians more than $49 billion and led to the loss of nearly 74,000 lives or 200 lives per day in 2020 (see Figure 2). In 2020, tobacco use was the leading cause of substance attributable deaths with 46,366 deaths in 2020, followed by alcohol use with 17,098 deaths and opioid use with 6,491 deaths. The harms related to substance use are not limited to the loss of lives alone, but also include increased costs to our health care system, from hospitalizations, emergency visits and specialized treatment for substance use disorders, which amounted to $13.4 billion in 2020. Substance use also has economic impacts due to lost productivity from premature deaths and time off work due to disability, which cost $22.4 billion in 2020. The enforcement of substance use laws cost Canada’s criminal justice system $10.0 billion in 2020.

[panamaniac]

Does that graph include the retail cost of legal substances as part of the cost of the abuse of legal and illegal substances? I'd find that a bit weird.

[ZEBuilder]

If you're looking at that graph though one could reasonably come to the understanding that alcohol and tobacco have a greater societal impact so we should target those instead of targeting opioid issues which are the more prevalent ones in society. So what's to say we shouldn't force people into rehab for tobacco/alcohol then?

I know I'm being the devils advocate here but the reality is sure opioids play a major issue but alcohol/tobacco which are legal have a larger impact in terms of dollars.

[tomh009]

Does that graph include the retail cost of legal substances as part of the cost of the abuse of legal and illegal substances?  I'd find that a bit weird.

It does not.

[ac3r]

If you're looking at that graph though one could reasonably come to the understanding that alcohol and tobacco have a greater societal impact so we should target those instead of targeting opioid issues which are the more prevalent ones in society. So what's to say we shouldn't force people into rehab for tobacco/alcohol then?

I know I'm being the devils advocate here but the reality is sure opioids play a major issue but alcohol/tobacco which are legal have a larger impact in terms of dollars.

They're all bad for sure, but opioids are a different beast and not just in the cost factors or what they do to individuals and society. The opioid epidemic is a relatively recent thing we're having to fight, so the answers for how we tackle their misuse and abuse is still evolving (ignoring the opium days, it wasn't until the late 1980s we began to see the rise of heroin; now in 2024, opiate drugs are everywhere).

We know what and how to get people to chill out when it comes to drinking and smoking, but opiate abuse is still a complex and growing issue. It needs to be nipped in the bud now.

[Vojnik_Vahaj]

Not to mention the resources didn't exist for voluntary treatment (the current system), so what's the plan from these 'lock em up' types? Are they really willing to pay tax money for addicts before they fix things like hallway medicine and family doctor shortages? Not a good political look for them.

OR: They don't actually intend to do anything since the cost is obviously greater than the status quo, they just want to look tough on crime and let out some genuine frustration about a gigantic society-wide problem that we don't actually control.

I'd be willing to pay more taxes if I could see the results. The Danish have a ridiculous(by canadian standards) tax rate but nobody complains because they have actual results and benefit from what their tax dollars are being used for.

[ac3r]

The Danes are fortunate enough to not be Anglo-American brained like we are in Canada. To Canadians, tax = bad.

And yeah I hate taxes, but only IN Canada. I have no problem paying my taxes in Europe, since I know it's going to something useful.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I've been greatly enjoying the responses on the Charles Terminal thread, but I think a question that I want to ask would be more appropriate in this thread.

Other than an arena/convention centre, and other than additional housing, what is the single thing that our city could do to make our downtown "world class".

Or at least to become the 4th-best downtown in our country. I think that's a lofty goal, but one that could certainly be achieved given the tremendously low bar we'd need to clear to beat cities like Ottawa or Edmonton.

[Rainrider22]

I think a simple step is to make a pedestrian mall out of King Street, no need to have to drive down King. Create a European city centre. I have had the pleasure to enjoy some beautiful Squares. In particular, Krakow Square is one of the most beautiful I have experienced with Warsaw a close second. The vibe and the feel is amazing.

Get the new transit centre built but add a destination point. Maybe a world class swimming pool for competitions including diving, maybe a casino, but I will always revert back to an arena and convention centre. Just my 2 cents. Remember this is brain storming, so all you ney sayers keep you negativity to yourself and just present your vision.

[Kodra24]

I agree with having a pedestrian only zone - the bigger the better, something like after 3 or 5pm and on weekends

Also have family-friendly zones, parks etc. perhaps pop-up retail, year-round events/concerts - this will draw people, especially if nearby parking is free/cheap at those times

The swimming pool is a fantastic idea, create a world-class sports facility (something like they're doing in the South End) but downtown, that would be very cool

[westwardloo]

I agree with having a pedestrian only zone - the bigger the better, something like after 3 or 5pm and on weekends

Also have family-friendly zones, parks etc. perhaps pop-up retail, year-round events/concerts - this will draw people, especially if nearby parking is free/cheap at those times

The swimming pool is a fantastic idea, create a world-class sports facility (something like they're doing in the South End) but downtown, that would be very cool

I love the Idea of a Pedestrian only zone, I think the best time to do that would have been to run the LRT down king street and made King from francis to Benton pedestrian only. 

Someone mentioned potentially providing a retail  tax break for retailers in the dt Core. I actually think this could be a clever solution to encourage a larger anchor to set up an urban format store in Kitchener. I wouldn't mind if we looked at a commercial tax break to entice corporations and businesses to establish offices in the core. Losing, Manulife, Sunlife, Rogers radio and Stantec where blows. It would have been nice if CTV had set up shop dtk instead of out near sportsworld. We already "subsidize" suburban office parks/ power centres. 

Obviously I am in the Pro-Arena camp. I have already made my arguments for why I think it could boost the DTK, I understand the counter arguments so please don't respond with them. There are going to be people for or against any idea. 

Coming from a swimming background I would love to see the region invest in actual Olympic sized pool/ aquatic centre. We used to be a national training centre until the mid 00's. I don't know if it needs to be in the DT core though. It could come with the Region bidding on a Canada Games or god forbid we pretend to be world class and bid on the Commonwealth Games.