What does DTK need?

[panamaniac]

A big problem is the atmosphere downtown. People don't want to walk around or run a business when the streets are full of people that make you want to avoid it all together. It's not a situation unique to Waterloo Region or Kitchener. Unfortunately it's largely the result of a hands off policy regarding petty crime, open air drug use and sales and spaces occupied by homeless people. We haven't managed to develop a suitable method to deal with that, so that hands off policy results in these issues. Our policy makers forgot to think about that part.

I live and work downtown, so I know a lot of people who walk downtown. Of those likely 100+ people, I am aware of only a single person who is uncomfortable in DTK. But maybe all the people who are uncomfortable with it live and work in the suburbs?

There is some drug use, and there are some homeless people: a pervasive problem in most cities, as you note, and certainly not exclusive to Canada. It is far from being crime-ridden, though.

As for policies, there are no silver bullets. Housing-first approaches tend to be more successful, but with the combination of high housing costs, lack of affordable housing, lack of mental health funding and ready availability of illegal drugs, this is not a simple problem to solve. If it were, there would be far more cities that have addressed this.

It's true.  In my experience the people most uncomforable/negative wrt DTK are the people who never go there.

[dtkvictim]

The whole discussion of this article probably should have been in the "what does DTK need" thread, but anyways: It's incredible how we can have such drastically different experiences and perceptions from each other. I would estimate that the majority of people I know, which is a healthy mix of people who live downtown, used to live downtown, or live suburban, are uncomfortable to varying degrees downtown. Personally I am uncomfortable and unable to generally relax downtown, though I don't let it stop me from enjoying what downtown has to offer. Many people I know who live downtown do let it prevent them from going out, at least alone.

I think one factor is that I live in a condo building with a secure parking garage, which mitigates some of the issues that I think you have experienced in the past. But, in general, the people in my building do not have an issue going out downtown for dinner or otherwise. Of course, everyone would love for our homelessness and drug problems to go away, but those issues are not keeping them from walking downtown.

I don't personally know anyone, male or female (both our building and my office are fairly evenly split) that has been physically or verbally assaulted. Yes, I also see the mentally-ill people who yell at no one, and at times switch their attention to you, but they are not typically aggressive. Not nice, but not unsafe either.

I do not by any means intend to belittle the problem we--and other cities--have, but I don't think it's preventing people from walking downtown. (Alone after dark, I really don't know, I have not explored that question.)

Perhaps some of it is due to the differences in our housing, sure. But the idea that living effectively in a gated community would actually protecting be me from some extremely antisocial behaviour outside my door wouldn't make me feel better about the neighbourhood I live in. That we live so close together but have drastically different experiences may be a problem itself.

I've been verbally and physically (thankfully not seriously) assaulted. My landlord's maintenance worker has been attacked at random (right in front of Starbucks) and had both him and the assailant end up at the hospital. My spouse has had similar experiences to me, outside of ones we experienced together. My sister-in-law who lived directly downtown, and now on the edge of downtown has expressed her concerns with being out alone. A couple I know who just spent a year in Vancouver is moving back and asking me to help them pick a place that is good for cycling but won't repeat these same issues that plagued them in Vancouver. Another woman I know moved back to suburban Kitchener from downtown Toronto after the same problems.

As far as the female perspective goes, I had no idea until my spouse drilled it into me. Most woman I've found won't bring it up directly, but almost all I've discussed it with seem to have these same safety concerns. I recall a discussion where it came up with my brother and sister-in-law, where she went on a huge rant about her safety concerns, and my brother was completely surprised she felt that way and thought it wasn't serious at all.

I do think many suburbanites have a horribly warped perspective of downtown, especially those who would characterize is as a "liberal hellscape" or similar. But the opposite perspective that all is fine (not that you have proposed that) is equally problematic to me. When suburbanites tell me they don't feel safe or think downtown is unpleasant, my own experiences can't tell me to disagree with them, even if their reasoning is misinformed.

Anyways, I don't discount your perspective and those of the people you've talked to. I just wonder how and why the groups of people we know, as well as our individual selves, have such different thoughts on the topic.

[ac3r]

A good point about the sex differences. Many women do not feel comfortable going out alone at night, more so going out when you've got tweakers and opioid users who may see women as an easier target to rob, intimidate or even assault.

It's one thing for men to feel safer (particularly white males), but the perspective changes depending on one's sex because obviously men - heck, even trans who identify as women* - tend to have physical attributes that can make self defense easier. Perspective can also change depending on ones sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity and age.

The reality is that downtown is not as safe as it should be and that impacts all of us, regardless of our personal experiences down there. It keeps people from being willing to visit it and it impacts business. There are numerous reasons why people are choosing to avoid it either as patrons or business owners. Shifting the blame to suburbanites and saying well they're just too scared to go out is silly as well. If that's true, that says more about downtown than anything else because a downtown should be able to exit without relying on them. There's simply not enough to do down there, it's expensive, it's unsafe and evidently all of this is working against it. Acknowledging and accepting that reality isn't a bad thing. It's unfortunate, sure, but at least it gives us a sense of what's wrong and how we may be able to improve it. Things like more shops, cultural venues, police/security presence, better lighting etc can all be ways to make downtown desirable, but if you've got people nodding off on opiates or breaking into cars everyday, people will opt to hang out elsewhere. And yeah that goes on in the suburbs as well but it's less immediately visible.

* Before anyone has a knee jerk reaction about this statement, I bring it up simply because there are still going to be physical differences that matter greatly when it comes to self defense. That tends not to change until after many years of transitioning. There are still physical differences, as something like height for example can make it easier to disable someone.

[Acitta]

A good point about the sex differences. Many women do not feel comfortable going out alone at night, more so going out when you've got tweakers and opioid users who may see women as an easier target to rob, intimidate or even assault.

It's one thing for men to feel safer (particularly white males ), but the perspective changes depending on one's sex because obviously men - heck, even trans who identify as women* - tend to have physical attributes that can make self defense easier. Perspective can also change depending on ones sexual orientation, religion or ethnicity.

* Before anyone has a knee jerk reaction about this statement, I bring it up simply because there are still going to be physical differences that matter greatly when it comes to self defense.

The reality is that downtown is not as safe as it should be and that impacts all of us, regardless of our personal experiences down there. It keeps people from being willing to visit it and it impacts business. There are numerous reasons why people are choosing to avoid it either as patrons or business owners. Shifting the blame to suburbanites and saying well they're just too scared to go out is silly as well. If that's true, that says more about downtown than anything else because a downtown should be able to exit without relying on them. There's simply not enough to do down there, it's expensive, it's unsafe and evidently all of this is working against it. Acknowledging and accepting that reality isn't a bad thing. It's unfortunate, sure, but at least it gives us a sense of what's wrong and how we may be able to improve it.

There are plenty of people who feel safe enough downtown to attend the many festivals and other events there. I have stood at the bus stop by the encampment after dark on Victoria and not felt unsafe. I have never felt unsafe on King St. The last time that I was annoyed by anything downtown was about 15 years ago when a drug addicted woman offered to do anything I wanted for $5. Yes, there are the occasional drunks and people yelling at other people, but I find that a normal city thing, not as bad as I have seen in Toronto where I used to live.

[tomh009]

There are plenty of people who feel safe enough downtown to attend the many festivals and other events there. I have stood at the bus stop by the encampment after dark on Victoria and not felt unsafe. I have never felt unsafe on King St. The last time that I was annoyed by anything downtown was about 15 years ago when a drug addicted woman offered to do anything I wanted for $5. Yes, there are the occasional drunks and people yelling at other people, but I find that a normal city thing, not as bad as I have seen in Toronto where I used to live.

Based on personal observation, most of the drug use in DTK appears to be smoking (crystal meth? not really up on drug ID) and the symptoms of drug usage tend to be users frozen in odd positions on the sidewalk or in entrances. If there are random needles on the street (apart from the safe injection site near city hall) I really have not seen them. This is not at the same level as downtown eastside.

On the other hand, what I do see in the early mornings from time to time is people sitting on benches in the park or the IHT and smoking some (clearly illicit) drugs--but these are people who are very clearly not homeless, but rather look like contributing members of society who just stopped on the way to work to do some drugs, probably out of sight of their families. The drug use is definitely not limited to just the homeless population.

And mental health ... well, if the provincial government were willing to restore the funding they slashed, we might make some headway on those issues, but even that is not a silver bullet that will solve all those problems.

[ac3r]

It's primarily opiate use, rather than methamphetamine. It's most commonly fentanyl produced either in the PRC or Mexico. These days, it's frequently cut with xalazine, a drug used to sedate large animals. This is what usually causes the "fentanyl stance", which is why you see people hunched over or frozen in odd positions. It's a huge risk because it cannot be reversed with naloxone, meaning overdoses are much deadlier. It's used by smoking either to inhale it, or inject it. Interestingly, smoking it is becoming much more common whereas injection is slowly tapering off which is a good thing as that helps reduce the risk of spreading HIV and hepatitis from needle sharing.

[bravado]

I've seen it all just in downtown Galt, let alone what I've seen in downtown Kitchener. I think it's important to acknowledge this as a forum of mostly men.

My wife doesn't want to go downtown and I know it's a combination of suburban upbringing with real, tangible fear/discomfort from the people hanging around. The people walking down my street screaming, falling over, passed out, going through garbage, breaking into my garage - the data is real and it's not just suburban paranoia.

The problem is that people want to reach for the enforcement hammer because it's quickest and easiest, and yet the fact that this shit is happening in every urban area across the continent is proof that local laws and cops didn't stop enforcing the law all at the same time. There's some serious society-wide shit going on with housing and drugs and hope/doom and I don't see anyone in government who's really serious about tackling it. It's so much easier to just rant and rave about the local shelter (hi, kneejerk-loving local councillor!) than it is to really think about what is generating all the people that need that shelter in the first place.

[danbrotherston]

I've seen it all just in downtown Galt, let alone what I've seen in downtown Kitchener. I think it's important to acknowledge this as a forum of mostly men.

My wife doesn't want to go downtown and I know it's a combination of suburban upbringing with real, tangible fear/discomfort from the people hanging around. The people walking down my street screaming, falling over, passed out, going through garbage, breaking into my garage - the data is real and it's not just suburban paranoia.

The problem is that people want to reach for the enforcement hammer because it's quickest and easiest, and yet the fact that this shit is happening in every urban area across the continent is proof that local laws and cops didn't stop enforcing the law all at the same time. There's some serious society-wide shit going on with housing and drugs and hope/doom and I don't see anyone in government who's really serious about tackling it. It's so much easier to just rant and rave about the local shelter (hi, kneejerk-loving local councillor!) than it is to really think about what is generating all the people that need that shelter in the first place.

I think a lot of things can be true at the same time.

Some people, for various reasons, have different levels of fear about downtown, regardless of what the actual risks are (remember, real risk often has no impact at all on perception of risk).

Some people's fears are so detached from reality that the solution is not to improve reality, but to give them therapy/fix the bad actors causing this fear (media, etc.)

The perception of how many people are afraid to go downtown can be wildly incorrect for the same reason our fears are different, and frankly, they work together, people want to feel like part of the crowd even when it comes to things like fear, to the point that I think some people would mis-state their fears just to be a part of a certain group.

And of course, it is also the case that we should work to improve our cities so that people are not suffering on our streets, regardless of whether it rightly or wrongly makes people fearful.

[Acitta]

The death of the downtown has been greatly exaggerated: Experts

Linda Jutzi, Executive Director, Downtown Kitchener BIA, also speaking to The Mike Farwell Show, said there has been a shift from the traditional daytime “corporate” traffic to a more residential and entertainment based, nightlife vibe.

“We are seeing a more positive trend of more people after 4 o’clock. Way more people living downtown and way more visitors in the evening.”

[panamaniac]

Good thing they spoke with an "expert" and not, like, a professional DTK booster ...

[ac3r]

Nightlife??? Rich cultural experiences? Lmao.

[dtkmelissa]

I've seen it all just in downtown Galt, let alone what I've seen in downtown Kitchener. I think it's important to acknowledge this as a forum of mostly men.

My wife doesn't want to go downtown and I know it's a combination of suburban upbringing with real, tangible fear/discomfort from the people hanging around. The people walking down my street screaming, falling over, passed out, going through garbage, breaking into my garage - the data is real and it's not just suburban paranoia.

The problem is that people want to reach for the enforcement hammer because it's quickest and easiest, and yet the fact that this shit is happening in every urban area across the continent is proof that local laws and cops didn't stop enforcing the law all at the same time. There's some serious society-wide shit going on with housing and drugs and hope/doom and I don't see anyone in government who's really serious about tackling it. It's so much easier to just rant and rave about the local shelter (hi, kneejerk-loving local councillor!) than it is to really think about what is generating all the people that need that shelter in the first place.

Glad to see that gender is being considered as part of this discussion, especially since, as noted, the forum does seem more heavily populated by men. While I suspect that a higher percentage of females have concerns about walking downtown than males, there are still many of us who feel quite safe/comfortable. I agree with previous comments that most of the issues we have seem related to 'city' living rather than to Downtown Kitchener specifically. I feel very safe walking on my own, even at night and even after having some unfortunate interactions such as a man trying to encourage me to get into his van (Um, no thank you). I don't want to dismiss the concerns of others, but did want to at least say that as a woman, I do still feel very safe in DTK...while occasionally needing to be more 'alert' around some people.

[ac3r]

I suppose one of the biggest issues is the actual perception of safety, not even the safety itself. Downtown Kitchener - heck, anywhere in Waterloo Region - is going to be safe for just about everyone 99.9% of the time. Lots of people have spent their entire lives here and the worst they've experienced is a car robbery or a stolen cell phone. What matters more is the perception of safety. That's a problem cities all over North America are suffering from lately. While we can blame inflation, homelessness, a deadly pandemic changing things etc but none of that really matters if people don't feel an area is safe or even just desirable to go to.

It doesn't matter how low you drop the rent/lease in a place like ours, the eastend of Vancouver's downtown, Portland, OR...heck even Gatnieau, QC or London, ON if the streets are still full of undesirables and undesirable things. At the very least we can be thankful this area is not as broken and beyond repair as many urban centres are in North America, but there is still a lot of work to do when it comes to making people of Waterloo Region want to actually visit, live or work in the urban cores. Whether someone is trying to run a new business or raise children, downtown still isn't the place to really do that.

[bravado]

The 'perception' of safety is a big one and a better way to put it. I don't feel unsafe in many situations, because I'm a big guy and I take risks all the time. But when my wife says she doesn't want to go downtown because she doesn't feel safe, I can't then say "oh it's not so bad, here's a bunch of data and graphs about why it's fine" - she doesn't perceive it as safe and that's a big problem. It keeps people in their houses and not out and about contributing to the community and feeling like a part of a place.

For many suburban councillors, that's perfectly ideal...

[dtkvictim]

I can't then say "oh it's not so bad, here's a bunch of data and graphs about why it's fine" - she doesn't perceive it as safe and that's a big problem.

Many people do say this, but the data that gets posted only counters misinformed people who have never set a foot in the city or downtown. There are plenty of valid feelings, be it safety or something else, that prevents people from wanting to spend time in a place. These feelings can be well justified by things that will never show up in statistics, especially crime statistics. I'm not suggesting which of these apply to Kitchener, though they certainly apply to North American cities in general, things like uncleanliness, decrepit buildings, people screaming, human suffering on display (,and apparently open drug use) are not illegal but don't make for a place that people will want to be. Safety doesn't even need to come into it, though perception of safety is in practice tied to those things too.

For many suburban councillors, that's perfectly ideal...

I'm not sure if you're implying some sort of conspiracy here, but I've found many suburban places appear to have far more people out than downtown does on a typical evening.