Urban parks

[dtkvictim]

I know this topic has been discussed here plenty, but hopefully part of the discussion extends beyond the park itself. For me the two biggest issues are the intersection of overcrowding and active transportation, both of which can be solved outside of the park. Things like providing similar amenities at other parks, expanding other parks, and continuing with active transportation alternative routes.

This is strongly on point...but I also think it's antithetical to how planning in Canada works. The Park Master Plan will exist in isolation. It can say "well the city should develop other transportation routes to relieve pressure on the park" but then the city's transportation plan will say "funnel as many people through the park because it's convenient", and everyone will agree that's absurd, and then continue to do it anyway.

That also reminds me, another issue with running active transportation through parks is that parks "close" at night. It's probably quite unlikely to be stopped while just passing through, but it's still an absurd idea. I've been warned in a different park for being there after hours (I didn't even know parks closed), and don't want to have to risk a fine just to get home safely.

[Acitta]

This is strongly on point...but I also think it's antithetical to how planning in Canada works. The Park Master Plan will exist in isolation. It can say "well the city should develop other transportation routes to relieve pressure on the park" but then the city's transportation plan will say "funnel as many people through the park because it's convenient", and everyone will agree that's absurd, and then continue to do it anyway.

That also reminds me, another issue with running active transportation through parks is that parks "close" at night. It's probably quite unlikely to be stopped while just passing through, but it's still an absurd idea. I've been warned in a different park for being there after hours (I didn't even know parks closed), and don't want to have to risk a fine just to get home safely.

I think that the bylaws closing parks at night is probably to give the police a reason to expel those using the parks for disruptive purposes, e.g. large groups of noisy teenagers disturbing the neighbours. I doubt that the police are going to sit around in a park waiting to ticket random individuals passing through on their way home after the bars close. I have been in many parks at night without seeing anyone, let alone a police officer.

[dtkvictim]

That also reminds me, another issue with running active transportation through parks is that parks "close" at night. It's probably quite unlikely to be stopped while just passing through, but it's still an absurd idea. I've been warned in a different park for being there after hours (I didn't even know parks closed), and don't want to have to risk a fine just to get home safely.

I think that the bylaws closing parks at night is probably to give the police a reason to expel those using the parks for disruptive purposes, e.g. large groups of noisy teenagers disturbing the neighbours. I doubt that the police are going to sit around in a park waiting to ticket random individuals passing through on their way home after the bars close. I have been in many parks at night without seeing anyone, let alone a police officer.

No, I'm not really concerned about it, but I don't agree with the idea that major connectors for safe routes can be closed for parks of the day just in principle, at least without a direct alternative.

The time I was given a warning I was simply sitting on a bench and talking with a friend. I don't know if I'd continue getting warnings or a fine in the future, but I certainly wasn't doing anything disruptive.

[Acitta]

I think that the bylaws closing parks at night is probably to give the police a reason to expel those using the parks for disruptive purposes, e.g. large groups of noisy teenagers disturbing the neighbours. I doubt that the police are going to sit around in a park waiting to ticket random individuals passing through on their way home after the bars close. I have been in many parks at night without seeing anyone, let alone a police officer.

No, I'm not really concerned about it, but I don't agree with the idea that major connectors for safe routes can be closed for parks of the day just in principle, at least without a direct alternative.

The time I was given a warning I was simply sitting on a bench and talking with a friend. I don't know if I'd continue getting warnings or a fine in the future, but I certainly wasn't doing anything disruptive.

It is nice that police officers have time to deal with people quietly talking on a bench in a park at night. It is a good thing that we don't have any car thefts, burglaries, gun battles or other crimes to distract them from that important job.

[ac3r]

In my experience the police could care less about you being in a park after they "close" unless you look like a vagrant. It's more one of those policies that exists on paper, but in reality they could care less.

[ijmorlan]

Regardless of how seriously police take the overnight park closings, there should be an explicit carve-out for use of the trails. This is just on principle; the law as written should at least try to reflect actual practice, and advertising a city as being active-transportation-friendly requires that it actually be legal to use all the advertised routes.

That being said, I am disturbed to hear dtkvictim’s experience; police should be using appropriate discretion and should understand the purposes of the laws they enforce.

[panamaniac]

I thought all municipal parks closed at dusk.

[danbrotherston]

This is strongly on point...but I also think it's antithetical to how planning in Canada works. The Park Master Plan will exist in isolation. It can say "well the city should develop other transportation routes to relieve pressure on the park" but then the city's transportation plan will say "funnel as many people through the park because it's convenient", and everyone will agree that's absurd, and then continue to do it anyway.

That also reminds me, another issue with running active transportation through parks is that parks "close" at night. It's probably quite unlikely to be stopped while just passing through, but it's still an absurd idea. I've been warned in a different park for being there after hours (I didn't even know parks closed), and don't want to have to risk a fine just to get home safely.

Yeah, this is definitely a problem. It was interesting too because the Iron Horse Trail (and other trails also) were run by the parks department, and hence were considered parks and technically closed. It took a lot of convincing that it was problem that had to be solved, and I think they added an exception...but the idea that active transportation infra "closes" is just absurd.

And yeah, it is a real problem...I've had the police literally follow me through the park (I was walking up Jubilee Dr and a cruiser literally crawled up the whole road following me. Of course, they'd never even conceive of closing Jubilee Dr to cars right.

[danbrotherston]

I thought all municipal parks closed at dusk.

Dusk? No. At least not all parks, Victoria park is obviously open after dusk, it even has lighting. Dusk is like 4 PM in the winter.

But they are all officially closed around 11:30 or so.

[ijmorlan]

I’m not sure of the official status now, but for a long time the Spur Line Trail was officially closed during train movement hours. Completely nonsensical, given the proliferation of sidewalks immediately next to 70km/h motor vehicle traffic all over the city.

[danbrotherston]

I’m not sure of the official status now, but for a long time the Spur Line Trail was officially closed during train movement hours. Completely nonsensical, given the proliferation of sidewalks immediately next to 70km/h motor vehicle traffic all over the city.

Definitely absurd given the spur line trains move at like 10km/h.

That being said, it's also remarkable how incapable we are at building even low impedance separations between things. Like, everything must either be unseparated or a 12 foot tall chain link or concrete fence with 10 feet on either side.

The Netherlands is absolutely chock full of small fences and 4 foot tall hedges. Yeah, hedges need maintenance, but a similar rail line (as in a spur line carrying low frequency freight at 30-40 km/h), has a 3 foot tall fence beside it the whole way, as a result there's zero interaction between the path and railway...and there's far less right of way than the spur line.

[tomh009]

I know this topic has been discussed here plenty, but hopefully part of the discussion extends beyond the park itself. For me the two biggest issues are the intersection of overcrowding and active transportation, both of which can be solved outside of the park. Things like providing similar amenities at other parks, expanding other parks, and continuing with active transportation alternative routes.

Where in the park do you see the overcrowding? I'm there often and I don't really see this problem, so either we are looking at different places (or times)--or else our definitions of "overcrowding" are different.

This is not to say that we shouldn't create more parkland, but I am not observing an overcrowding problem at Victoria Park quite yet.

[dtkvictim]

I know this topic has been discussed here plenty, but hopefully part of the discussion extends beyond the park itself. For me the two biggest issues are the intersection of overcrowding and active transportation, both of which can be solved outside of the park. Things like providing similar amenities at other parks, expanding other parks, and continuing with active transportation alternative routes.

Where in the park do you see the overcrowding? I'm there often and I don't really see this problem, so either we are looking at different places (or times)--or else our definitions of "overcrowding" are different.

This is not to say that we shouldn't create more parkland, but I am not observing an overcrowding problem at Victoria Park quite yet.

I don't mean to say it's overcrowded in general (especially not for the colder half of the year), but there are often times I feel like it is. On any reasonably nice day after work hours, and especially on the weekend, it sometimes gets to that point. It doesn't take much for active transportation through the park to become frustrating unless you want to ride rudely (which I don't) - but thankfully other routes have been opening up. On these days there are often no benches or picnic tables available without getting lucky or waiting. The calisthenics park is useless outside of being an extension to the playground on nice days too, which is when I might want to go out instead of using my home gym. The parks at Bluevale and St Mary's are a bit too far as to be reasonable alternatives.

I also personally perceive an increase in either selfish behaviour or maybe just conflicting cultural norms like groups filling the entire path, failure to keep to the right, speakerphone usage or watching videos out loud (a guy sat next to me and started watching a video of crying babies the other evening...). These things all make the crowds feel bigger than they actually are. It's hard to enjoy a walk when you can't go in a straight line without constantly negotiating to not run into people.

I enjoy seeing people out having fun, children playing, families BBQing, etc. I just find the levels of people you might see in less central parks more appropriate, and question if we don't deserve that level of space and peace because of the neighbourhood we live in. Especially under a push for increased density and less people living with private yards, it's important to consider, or people might push back. Though I might be the odd one out and simply don't belong here, if others enjoy what I call overcrowding.

[tomh009]

Indeed the paths are not a good fit for bicycling given the number of people walking on them--it can be frustrating for both bicyclists and pedestrians. I rarely cycle on the park paths, but I don't find the walking bothersome, even with the sometimes busy paths, as it's pretty easy to navigate around them. This is not at the level of downtown Toronto sidewalks yet!

Adding benches or picnic tables should be easy and not a significant cost to address that part.

And I'm hopeful that the park will grow in the future yet, within the constraints of the surrounding neighbourhood.

[nms]

When comparing Victoria Park to other city parks, Victoria Park is busy during most daylight hours regardless of the day of the week. I have been at suburban parks with similar amenities during similar times of the day and they are deserted. As dtkvictim suggested, I believe that the biggest cause is that Victoria Park is within a walkable range (or even driving and transit) for those who do not have backyards or indoor communal spaces where they can congregate with family or friends. This is perfectly acceptable, but should the downtown population increase, use of the park is also going to increase.

As more density is brought to downtown Kitchener, the use of the park is only going to increase. The City should definitely be taking a proactive look at ways that either the park boundary can be expanded, or developers can support recreational space on their own properties.