Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[tomh009]

I would say that a good concert& sports venue is one of those "bones" that needs to be addressed. Just look at how many bands pass us by because the Aud is either not big enough or does not have modern rigging. and how much more popular with the Kitchener Rangers be with a 15,000-seat arena instead of one not even half that size?

I'd rather have private industry build an arena in a desirable area instead of the public paying for an arena to try and make an area desirable. We've seen it go wrong so many times.

The Rangers are a bit unusual here in that they are community-owned, rather than owned by a billionaire owner. So, in that sense, the community paying for the arena does make more sense than in, say, Toronto.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I appreciate that it may not be the best use of public money to replace the Aud. But I also think that our politicians disagree, and that we will have a new arena announced sometime in the next 10 years.

That leaves the location as the only real “debate”. I’ve personally been advocating for the GRT terminal since it’s already publicly owned land, it would help the downtown businesses, and it would be the only option that doesn’t include building tons of parking lots.

If a new Aud is inevitable, which I think it is, I just don’t want to see it built on the outskirts of town, surrounded by a sea of parking lots. I want to see it used as a tool to help other parts of our community.

[danbrotherston]

I appreciate that it may not be the best use of public money to replace the Aud. But I also think that our politicians disagree, and that we will have a new arena announced sometime in the next 10 years.

That leaves the location as the only real “debate”. I’ve personally been advocating for the GRT terminal since it’s already publicly owned land, it would help the downtown businesses, and it would be the only option that doesn’t include building tons of parking lots.

If a new Aud is inevitable, which I think it is, I just don’t want to see it built on the outskirts of town, surrounded by a sea of parking lots. I want to see it used as a tool to help other parts of our community.

I don't know that thinking something is inevitable when it's not even planned and is at least 10 years away is reasonable. Something like highway 7 is much closer to inevitable because there are literally already shovels in the ground and land acquisitions.

There's still lots of time to push back on this, call your pols, let them know this is a bad idea, and that it's on your radar.

[ac3r]

Any new venue downtown (or in the suburbs) absolutely will have a sea of parking haha. The public would not accept a venue downtown which had insufficient parking spots directly at the location. Very few people would opt for the bus or LRT either especially if they're going to a game or some other show that they paid good money. Hell I doubt most people would even be willing to walk from a nearby parking garage to a venue.

[tomh009]

Any new venue downtown (or in the suburbs) absolutely will have a sea of parking haha. The public would not accept a venue downtown which had insufficient parking spots directly at the location. Very few people would opt for the bus or LRT either especially if they're going to a game or some other show that they paid good money. Hell I doubt most people would even be willing to walk from a nearby parking garage to a venue.

A downtown location would surely have mostly structured parking, though, not a "sea of surface parking lots". And leveraging existing parking garages is certainly legitimate: the walk is no more than the walk today from the far reaches of the current Aud parking lot to the arena itself.

[Rainrider22]

There is already a ton of parking garages within a 5 minute walk.

[tomh009]

There is already a ton of parking garages within a 5 minute walk.

Indeed. 1700 spots between the city hall, Ontario/Duke and Charles/Benton garages.

[CedarHillAlum]

I'd rather have private industry build an arena in a desirable area instead of the public paying for an arena to try and make an area desirable.

This is how it should be done. The last thing we need to do is blow probably well over 100 million in tax dollars on an arena for some boring local hockey team and concerts for artists that fell off a decade or two ago. We can barely convince the public that investments in bike lanes and buses is a good idea.

I challenge your comment "some boring local hockey team". I gather hockey is not your thing. I would assert that the Kitchener Rangers are one of the most beloved organizations in the Region.
Name me any other local institution/event that regularly 2 or 3 times a week draws 6,000 or more people together for a shared community experience and has done so for DECADES.

[bravado]

I bet we could build a great venue for some much needed entertainment. I still don’t think it’s the right way round in terms of priorities.

Good concert halls and sports stadiums appear in good places. Spending the money first while waiting for the place to become good after is just a debt trap. This is classic strong towns stuff.

[nms]

I think one of the challenges of attract "big name" acts to the Region (aside from the fact that we are within the exclusion zones of Toronto, Hamilton and London) is the the Memorial Auditorium does not have the physical capability of hosting a larger show. Modern music shows require tons of equipment which cannot be supported by the current concrete surface of the rink (and possibly hung from the roof). Since I don't know what's under the concrete surface, I don't know if that is the kind of thing that can be retrofit.

There are lots of options for live musical entertainment to be hosted in the Region, just not the 60,000 seat Taylor Swift et al concerts.

[danbrotherston]

This is how it should be done. The last thing we need to do is blow probably well over 100 million in tax dollars on an arena for some boring local hockey team and concerts for artists that fell off a decade or two ago. We can barely convince the public that investments in bike lanes and buses is a good idea.

I challenge your comment "some boring local hockey team". I gather hockey is not your thing. I would assert that the Kitchener Rangers are one of the most beloved organizations in the Region.
Name me any other local institution/event that regularly 2 or 3 times a week draws 6,000 or more people together for a shared community experience and has done so for DECADES.

I do think this is specific to certain groups. For example, nobody I know has ever been to a game, and likely would have to be reminded the rangers exist. Yes, they do have a dedicated following but that doesn’t represent the whole city. I’d even go so far as to say that the group which most finds the rangers to be important culturally is the establishment that has traditionally run the city.

As for similarly large/important cultural institutions, Octoberfest is an easy example, Elmira maple syrup festival. The rangers are not the only cultural institution.

[tomh009]

I challenge your comment "some boring local hockey team". I gather hockey is not your thing. I would assert that the Kitchener Rangers are one of the most beloved organizations in the Region.
Name me any other local institution/event that regularly 2 or 3 times a week draws 6,000 or more people together for a shared community experience and has done so for DECADES.

I do think this is specific to certain groups. For example, nobody I know has ever been to a game, and likely would have to be reminded the rangers exist. Yes, they do have a dedicated following but that doesn’t represent the whole city. I’d even go so far as to say that the group which most finds the rangers to be important culturally is the establishment that has traditionally run the city.

As for similarly large/important cultural institutions, Octoberfest is an easy example, Elmira maple syrup festival. The rangers are not the only cultural institution.

A fair point. I do know multiple people that go to Rangers games regularly, but clearly it's not a majority of the population or anything close to that. Still, a larger demographic than, say, symphony fans, rock climbers or theatregoers.

Arguably the biggest "cultural event" in the region is the blues festival, depending on how one assesses the objectives of Oktoberfest visitors.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I do think this is specific to certain groups. For example, nobody I know has ever been to a game, and likely would have to be reminded the rangers exist. Yes, they do have a dedicated following but that doesn’t represent the whole city. I’d even go so far as to say that the group which most finds the rangers to be important culturally is the establishment that has traditionally run the city.

As for similarly large/important cultural institutions, Octoberfest is an easy example, Elmira maple syrup festival. The rangers are not the only cultural institution.

A fair point. I do know multiple people that go to Rangers games regularly, but clearly it's not a majority of the population or anything close to that. Still, a larger demographic than, say, symphony fans, rock climbers or theatregoers.

Arguably the biggest "cultural event" in the region is the blues festival, depending on how one assesses the objectives of Oktoberfest visitors.

I feel like our collective understanding of the Aud is that it’s mostly a hockey venue. If/when it’s replaced, it would also be able to host other events like concerts and the like. So it’s not like it would be a solely dependant on hockey games to validate its existence. 

I can definitely appreciate it if someone doesn’t care about sports and music, though. I just think there are more than enough people in the Region who do that it makes the replacement of the Aud justifiable. 

To tie it back to this particular thread, I don’t think a multi-use arena is something that the Region is considering based on their EngageWR site. It seems like this site is destined to be condos with some multi-use rooms for community use included. Something like that is also certainly needed. I just think it’s waste of this unique site. Oh well.

[panamaniac]

Just because only a portion of the population uses a public facility is hardly a reason not to invest in such facilities.  One imagines that there are people in Kitchener who have never been to CITS or the KPL.

[danbrotherston]

Just because only a portion of the population uses a public facility is hardly a reason not to invest in such facilities.  One imagines that there are people in Kitchener who have never been to CITS or the KPL.

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

We do see this kind of aberration from governments pretty often though...Toronto is spending something like half it's 10 year capital transportation budget on a single road which serves only around 70k people a day in the city. In terms of dollars per person, it's an insane proposition. If TTC got funding at that rate, the city's transpo budget would have to be doubled and then 100% dedicated to TTC, and that's just existing ridership.