236 Victoria St N | 40 & 35 fl | Proposed

[plam]

I particularly like this one. New towers can be built in more appropriate locations closer to transit & other amenities

Not that Victoria St is a pleasant walk but it's not very far from the future transit terminal.


So should it be near transit so people can commute to work or are you just upset it has parking? This will just end up being a commuter condo


Seriously should they only be building housing next to the handful of transit hubs in the Region? What is their definition of near? Not close to planned major transit hubs

HAHA. I live in this neighbourhood. It's not that bad. Very noisy train tacks

You can walk to the Breightupt Community center and forest or KPL very easily. I'm also not going to fix their spelling Lonely little boxes that aren't close to commnity recreational facilities

I have to stop, I could be doing this all day....

I did write to the Kitchener councillors and said "look, I'm not a NIMBY, but we do need climbing gyms, a better use of this location than condos". (I wouldn't actually want to be on the car sewer that is Victoria anyway).

[ac3r]

Yeah...no.

There's nothing wrong with climbing gyms but providing thousands of new bedrooms for people when we need them now more than ever is a much better use of this land than providing a climbing gym that probably not even 0.5% of the residents in this region have ever set foot in.

There are countless places you can build a climbing gym across Waterloo Region. It doesn't need to be in the centre core of our area. That's a total waste of incredibly valuable space.

[bravado]

I don’t really see any equation at all where a climbing gym comes out ahead of a family’s first shot at secure housing… the social and financial good of the latter is overwhelming in every way. Like it or not, condos are the starter home of 2024 and being against starter homes is a bad look to me.

[plam]

Yeah...no.

There's nothing wrong with climbing gyms but providing thousands of new bedrooms for people when we need them now more than ever is a much better use of this land than providing a climbing gym that probably not even 0.5% of the residents in this region have ever set foot in.

There are countless places you can build a climbing gym across Waterloo Region. It doesn't need to be in the centre core of our area. That's a total waste of incredibly valuable space.

There really aren't, though. It is super hard to find locations for climbing gyms. And they certainly reach more than 0.5% of the population. More useful than a hockey rink, and those are publicly funded.

[westwardloo]

This is ridiculous. The fact that people are putting a climbing gym over housing hundreds of people is a hilarious reflection of how we got into the housing crisis in the first place. This site and all of the properties along victoria are a perfect locations for rezoning to mixed-use mid/high rise buildings. All of which could one day encourage Victoria to be selected as the east west leg of the LRT.

I feel bad for the gym, but they are a for profit business that can and will find an alternative location in 5-10 years when this building actually gets built. Maybe GRR should work closely with the developer of the Ottawa site to incorporate a unit that would accommodate a climbing gym. Developers will design spaces for specific tenants as long as there is a leasing contracts signed.

[tomh009]

Both the Victoria site and the old one on Charles are repurposed buildings. There are lots of warehouses and industrial buildings that can be used for climbing gyms (when they become vacant). Climbing doesn't need any special zoning, just a fairly large space with high ceilings. And a reasonable cost for the land/building--which implies a location away from the downtown core.

New community hockey rinks aren't being built downtown, either. Waterloo Rec Centre is the last one that I'm aware of, and that was thirty or more years ago.

[plam]

Both the Victoria site and the old one on Charles are repurposed buildings. There are lots of warehouses and industrial buildings that can be used for climbing gyms (when they become vacant). Climbing doesn't need any special zoning, just a fairly large space with high ceilings. And a reasonable cost for the land/building--which implies a location away from the downtown core.

New community hockey rinks aren't being built downtown, either. Waterloo Rec Centre is the last one that I'm aware of, and that was thirty or more years ago.

I've seen climbing gyms struggle to find locations for 20 years. Used to be Toronto where all this was happening, now it's KW. KW didn't have a gym for years between Higher Ground closing and GRR opening. The locations are also usually kind of crappy and sometimes pretty inaccessible to climbers without cars. It is true that it doesn't need special zoning, but somehow it seems difficult.

And then you have golf courses...

[ac3r]

There really aren't, though. It is super hard to find locations for climbing gyms. And they certainly reach more than 0.5% of the population. More useful than a hockey rink, and those are publicly funded.

I disagree. They could build a new climbing gym anywhere they could find suitable land and there is a lot of that around Waterloo Region. Only, they don't because no climbing gym makes enough money to open a new location as not enough people do this activity, which is why they are usually located in the most bottom of the barrel spaces that have almost no use case besides hosting something like this.

Which just proves the point that it's not a good use of the land because they can't seem to securely maintain a single location. If more than a tiny percentage of people were into this activity, then they'd probably be making enough money to be able to stay open without having to keep trying to find the cheapest lease possible. And the developers agree, since they have easily run the numbers and know that it makes way more sense to sell and redevelop a piece of land that will provide thousands of homes and new commercial space. That has exponentially greater economic and social benefits to the region than a climbing gym provides. A climbing gym provides 0 homes, a tiny number of jobs and is ultimately only available for those privileged enough to spend money to go there.

I'm not suggesting it's preferable to keep cornering this business (or any others) until it folds over, but if we have the choice between having high density residential skyscrapers like this project or the Borden project versus a climbing gym, the former is the more sensible choice. It's up to the gym and those who like the activity to properly fund the thing. It shouldn't be down to to coercing politicians to deny approving a major residential project just to keep a place like this open.

Or better yet - to bounce off something you mentioned regarding hockey rinks - maybe the region/cities could consider operating a recreational climbing facility the same way they fund golf courses, pools, community arenas and such. WPL worked with Teeple Architects and the YMCA to build the John M. Harper Branch library and that place has swimming pools, a running track, auditorium, gym and so much more. It makes sense to create community spaces that offer a wide range of activities, so maybe one day they would consider a climbing wall in the next public facility made in the region. As we grow and grow, they'll be building more of those. We outgrew the little downtown community centre at 35 Water West many years ago...maybe the former GRT terminal could host some awesome mixed use project complete with a plethora of services, recreational and sports activities for the ever growing number of people living downtown. It could have everything from a daycare, climbing walls, adult and seniors clubs, a swimming pool, gymnasiums for various sports, gym equipment, classes on anything from cooking to art, drop in centre/space for youth (particularly important for families who want to try raising children in an urban space), gallery spaces, social services and so much more. Something cool like that would be a hell of a lot more beneficial to the public than some sort of 15'000 seat sports stadium or whatever.

[plam]

There really aren't, though. It is super hard to find locations for climbing gyms. And they certainly reach more than 0.5% of the population. More useful than a hockey rink, and those are publicly funded.

I disagree. They could build a new climbing gym anywhere they could find suitable land and there is a lot of that around Waterloo Region. Only, they don't because no climbing gym makes enough money to open a new location as not enough people do this activity, which is why they are usually located in the most bottom of the barrel spaces that have almost no use case besides hosting something like this.

Which just proves the point that it's not a good use of the land because they can't seem to securely maintain a single location. If more than a tiny percentage of people were into this activity, then they'd probably be making enough money to be able to stay open without having to keep trying to find the cheapest lease possible. And the developers agree, since they have easily run the numbers and know that it makes way more sense to sell and redevelop a piece of land that will provide thousands of homes and new commercial space. That has exponentially greater economic and social benefits to the region than a climbing gym provides. A climbing gym provides 0 homes, a tiny number of jobs and is ultimately only available for those privileged enough to spend money to go there.

I'm not suggesting it's preferable to keep cornering this business (or any others) until it folds over, but if we have the choice between having high density residential skyscrapers like this project or the Borden project versus a climbing gym, the former is the more sensible choice. It's up to the gym and those who like the activity to properly fund the thing. It shouldn't be down to to coercing politicians to deny approving a major residential project just to keep a place like this open.

Or better yet - to bounce off something you mentioned regarding hockey rinks - maybe the region/cities could consider operating a recreational climbing facility the same way they fund golf courses, pools, community arenas and such. WPL worked with Teeple Architects and the YMCA to build the John M. Harper Branch library and that place has swimming pools, a running track, auditorium, gym and so much more. It makes sense to create community spaces that offer a wide range of activities, so maybe one day they would consider a climbing wall in the next public facility made in the region. As we grow and grow, they'll be building more of those. We outgrew the little downtown community centre at 35 Water West many years ago...maybe the former GRT terminal could host some awesome mixed use project complete with a plethora of services, recreational and sports activities for the ever growing number of people living downtown. It could have everything from a daycare, climbing walls, adult and seniors clubs, a swimming pool, gymnasiums for various sports, gym equipment, classes on anything from cooking to art, drop in centre/space for youth (particularly important for families who want to try raising children in an urban space), gallery spaces, social services and so much more. Something cool like that would be a hell of a lot more beneficial to the public than some sort of 15'000 seat sports stadium or whatever.

I'm all for climbing gyms in public infrastructure as well. There is one in a Calgary YMCA, as well as in the Toronto Pan-Am Sports Centre. Somehow it's not quite enough on the radar of decision-makers (who are old). It is also true that the public options tend to be much smaller than private climbing gyms. Toronto has gotten a lot of gyms, recently including some right in the middle of downtown (Basecamp), but it doesn't have the US-style mega gyms that have recently opened.

I also think that it's a matter of what type of community we want to be. Is it one with things for people to do in public, or one where people go to their own houses and hang out there? Climbing gyms really are more of a community hub than golf courses (I think; I've never golfed in my life) or sports stadiums. For me they are more like libraries and pools.

There are enough climbers to get 2000 emails sent to the Minister of Conservation about climbing in Ontario Parks last year, so it really is not a small demographic.

[ac3r]

Oh it's not that I think there aren't enough climbers. This is Canada...we love climbing and hiking. I usually go mountaineering once a year be it in the Torngat, Cassair, Laurentian to Yukon mountain ranges. But climbing mountains and cliffs in parks is a lot different than climbing gyms. Not that many people are willing - especially now when so many people are struggling - to spend money to climb the same 18 meter wall in an old factory or whatever, week after week. It's just not a good business model and use of space. I think to most people, a climbing gym is more like...an escape room. Something you try out and maybe go to a couple times for a bit of fun, but aren't really going to drop annual fees on because you'd be climbing the same wall or escaping the same room over and over again. They can be successful, but only if you have good business sense to keep the lights on and keep people returning.

But I think if you could stick a climbing wall or two in a new city or regional recreation facility then there's potential there. You can attract that casual crowd that wants a neat way to workout, but also introduce a lot of newbies to the activity. That can grow interest, then demand for more spaces...which, if the market demand is there, means successfully run private climbing gyms.

Or I don't know maybe this climbing space should try to partner with Bingemans or better yet, Chicopee Ski Resort. The latter is especially struggling now that climate change has totally destroyed their capacity to keep the ski hills open or reliably produce artificial snow, so they have spent a couple years trying to pivot to summer activities. But they can only make so much money on biking trails, tennis, running...I don't even know what they do anymore heh. Seems to me that taking a struggling winter/summer activity resort and a struggling climbing gym and made them spend some time together, a good relationship may blossom. :'P

[cherrypark]

Given the time that GRR has been in the community, it really seems like the correct lesson from all of this for them is finding a partner with some capital to buy and own the land they are on. That, or they need a better real estate agent / lawyer who can find them a space with term and consideration for the kind of leasehold improvements that a climbing gym requires.

Count me in on feeling bad for twice displacing a well liked community recreation hub and locally owned business, but there is nothing about that LA Fitness building and the sea of parking around it that is making good use of a central land ready for housing.

[IronDev]

Given the time that GRR has been in the community, it really seems like the correct lesson from all of this for them is finding a partner with some capital to buy and own the land they are on. That, or they need a better real estate agent / lawyer who can find them a space with term and consideration for the kind of leasehold improvements that a climbing gym requires.

Count me in on feeling bad for twice displacing a well liked community recreation hub and locally owned business, but there is nothing about that LA Fitness building and the sea of parking around it that is making good use of a central land ready for housing.

Exactly my thoughts. If you enter into a lease that has a demolition clause, then you can't really act surprised when it's used (demo is probably 3+ years away as well)

I would love if they got relocated in the base of a condo building as a amenity loss-leader, the irony from all the nimby talking points on the website would be great

[cherrypark]

Yes exactly - that partner could well be any of the multitude of condo developers in town that could incorporate that climbing gym space in as a special amenity without the issue of how to maintain and operate it.

[plam]

Given the time that GRR has been in the community, it really seems like the correct lesson from all of this for them is finding a partner with some capital to buy and own the land they are on. That, or they need a better real estate agent / lawyer who can find them a space with term and consideration for the kind of leasehold improvements that a climbing gym requires.

Count me in on feeling bad for twice displacing a well liked community recreation hub and locally owned business, but there is nothing about that LA Fitness building and the sea of parking around it that is making good use of a central land ready for housing.

I never really find private amenities in condos actually big enough to be useful, it's always some tiny version of the thing you actually want (pools, fitness centres).

I did mention to the owners 10 years ago that they really need to own their land. It is a lot of capital to tie up, but it also prevents being sold out, which is more of an issue now.

[tomh009]

I never really find private amenities in condos actually big enough to be useful, it's always some tiny version of the thing you actually want (pools, fitness centres).

Usually, but not always. The Willow St condos in Waterloo have quite a decent-sized pool, as I recall. And our building's fitness room is quite decent size (four bikes, three treadmills etc for 130-odd units). But most new buildings indeed have smaller fitness rooms and far more units.