Victoria Park

[Chris]

I never understood why parks have roads through them. They're for people to enjoy, not drive through. Personally I would like to see the closure of Jubilee street from David Street to Water Street. There is seemingly no reason to keep this section open. The only business is the boathouse which doesn't have any parking that would need to be accessed (when it opens).

Agreed. I've suggested a similar thing. Access to the parking lots on each end and close the road through the park.

A provision for food service delivery to reach the Boat house might be needed but that shouldn't be difficult.

I also dislike Union dividing Breithaupt Park but that will never be closed.

[ac3r]

Parks have roads primarily for maintenance vehicles to utilize. Having large trucks drive over grass isn't ideal.

But that doesn't mean the roads need to be public access. You could have a narrow road for maintenance to use run through the necessary parts of the park, and gates at the road entrances to keep the park otherwise closed to vehicles.

Sure, but just look at the map of Victoria Park. Jubilee is a necessary road to connect Victoria and Queen. It'd be nice if there were an alternative, but it offers a good shortcut between two major roads which is particularly useful now that Joseph got narrowed down to a sliver for a bike lane. Without it, you'd just add congestion to nearby residential streets.

Besides, Jubilee barely runs through the park itself. The big field next to the clock tower is more of an event space than anything and doesn't see that much use for anything besides that (would be nice if they had some soccer/football nets or some cricket patches for people to enjoy). It's a low speed street anyway, so at least the traffic is usually going through it at a tolerable speed. I don't frequently hear of anyone getting hit from cars using it, though I'm sure it has happened.

[nms]

At one time, many, many moons ago, there were apparently chains at David Street and Henry Street that were put across Park St at night to close the park to traffic.

[Bytor]

Sure, but just look at the map of Victoria Park. Jubilee is a necessary road to connect Victoria and Queen.

No, it is not.

It'd be nice if there were an alternative,

There's a bunch of other alternates

but it offers a good shortcut between two major roads which is particularly useful now that Joseph got narrowed down to a sliver for a bike lane. Without it, you'd just add congestion to nearby residential streets.

No, you wouldn't. If you ever drive that way you'd see that the evening traffic is 1) Park→Jubliee→Courtland→Stirling and down towards Southdale or Forest Hill, or 2) …Courtland→Ottawa down to Country Hills or

Put bollards on Jubilee between Heins and Water to prevent vehicles from using it as a through road. Then the major traffic flow for 1) is Park→Strange→Highland→Stirling, Park→Victoria→West→Highland→Stirling or better yet Park→Union→Belmont→Highland→Stirling.

For 2) Park→Union→Westmount→Ottawa.

Because of how slow this rush hour traffic is going along Jubilee, those other routes end up being faster by about 5 minutes. If you try cut from West to Homewood to get back to Courtland, you add those 5 minutes back on.

Besides, Jubilee barely runs through the park itself. The big field next to the clock tower is more of an event space than anything and doesn't see that much use for anything besides that (would be nice if they had some soccer/football nets or some cricket patches for people to enjoy).

I live right next to Victoria Park. From May to October when there is no event, there are lots of people playing soccer, frisbee football, and more. Your assertion of "doesn't see that much use for anything besides that" is objectively false.

It's a low speed street anyway, so at least the traffic is usually going through it at a tolerable speed. I don't frequently hear of anyone getting hit from cars using it, though I'm sure it has happened.

Cars frequently drive Jubilee at 50+km/h in spite of it being signed for 30km/h. At best they see the digital sign, slow down, then speed up right away after it. Many just ignore it.

One of the worst things, though, is coming out of the park at Queen & Courtland. It becomes two lanes, one for left and straight through, the other for right turns only. When I go out to walk the dog I am pretty much guaranteed to see some numbskull trying to go straight through in the right turn lane.

[danbrotherston]

Sure, but just look at the map of Victoria Park. Jubilee is a necessary road to connect Victoria and Queen.

No, it is not.

It'd be nice if there were an alternative,

There's a bunch of other alternates

but it offers a good shortcut between two major roads which is particularly useful now that Joseph got narrowed down to a sliver for a bike lane. Without it, you'd just add congestion to nearby residential streets.

No, you wouldn't. If you ever drive that way you'd see that the evening traffic is 1) Park→Jubliee→Courtland→Stirling and down towards Southdale or Forest Hill, or 2) …Courtland→Ottawa down to Country Hills or

Put bollards on Jubilee between Heins and Water to prevent vehicles from using it as a through road. Then the major traffic flow for 1) is Park→Strange→Highland→Stirling, Park→Victoria→West→Highland→Stirling or better yet Park→Union→Belmont→Highland→Stirling.

For 2) Park→Union→Westmount→Ottawa.

Because of how slow this rush hour traffic is going along Jubilee, those other routes end up being faster by about 5 minutes. If you try cut from West to Homewood to get back to Courtland, you add those 5 minutes back on.

Besides, Jubilee barely runs through the park itself. The big field next to the clock tower is more of an event space than anything and doesn't see that much use for anything besides that (would be nice if they had some soccer/football nets or some cricket patches for people to enjoy).

I live right next to Victoria Park. From May to October when there is no event, there are lots of people playing soccer, frisbee football, and more. Your assertion of "doesn't see that much use for anything besides that" is objectively false.

It's a low speed street anyway, so at least the traffic is usually going through it at a tolerable speed. I don't frequently hear of anyone getting hit from cars using it, though I'm sure it has happened.

Cars frequently drive Jubilee at 50+km/h in spite of it being signed for 30km/h. At best they see the digital sign, slow down, then speed up right away after it. Many just ignore it.

One of the worst things, though, is coming out of the park at Queen & Courtland. It becomes two lanes, one for left and straight through, the other for right turns only. When I go out to walk the dog I am pretty much guaranteed to see some numbskull trying to go straight through in the right turn lane.

Lol...I'm always amazed at how people will justify this. Yes, a change is in fact different from the current situation. Yes, a change is possible.

I've tried this thought experiment a few times and nobody I've tried with grasps it. In a different universe, Highland Rd. doesn't turn south, and instead continues through the park and connects to Water Street. In this universe, you still exist, but you insist that this road through the park is absolutely necessary to functioning of the road network, and removing it is impossible. Yet, if we go back to our universe, you'd never argue for building this road, despite the fact that it would be very convenient and it would provide the very same convenience to us. Jubilee is the same road. The ONLY reason people balk at removing it is because it is there now. If it wasn't there, nobody would even consider building it.

As for whether people use the field, this suggestion is both stupid and wrong....it's wrong, because as you point out, people DO use the space extensively. It's stupid, because even if they didn't (like they don't use the triangle made by the two legs of Water St.) it isn't because its unused, it's because it's stranded on the other side of a god damn highway. Sadly, there was plans to close the end of Water St. for the bike project, but the pro-traffic, anti-bike, anti-city urban NIMBYs killed that idea, so now, we continue to have traffic in that area.

FWIW...here was my idea of what to do in the area: Close Jubilee to cars, Close Joseph to cars, run the park straight through the old transit mall and increase the park space...something that a lot of NIMBYs have claimed is important to them. Straighten David/Ontario to make that a through route. Now that the Joseph bikeway exists, I don't think this is particularly likely, but the whole point was create an urban area around the transit centre and the parking lot to the north, but that would require an ambitious city.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1...sp=sharing

[ac3r]

The island that was ceded to a handful of people with severe addiction and psychiatric issues who refused any and all help, has at last been liberated to the public once again. While still technically closed, it has been more or less free from any squatters for a while. They may move back since the cities and region set the precedent that it's okay to just take up residence wherever one may so desire to do so but maybe at last we can take down the fences and barricades, do some very through cleaning of the entire park grounds of discarded used syringes/human waste/general trash and provide the public with a safe central park space once again.

There's no solid info on what caused the remaining people to finally bugger off. The catalyst was certainly Ichim and Co. getting bored of being at the helm of yet another failed communist social justice crusade so I think most of his silly followers drifted apart and then most of the homeless probably left for more desirable options, leaving basically only the couple real crazy people that were staying there as well as some others (the latter of which probably left due to the cold weather).

We'll have to see what happens come springtime. I imagine nearly everyone in the region is pleased at this news and are hoping we don't have a redux of the same nonsense once the snow begins to melt.

[Bytor]

I never understood why parks have roads through them. They're for people to enjoy, not drive through. Personally I would like to see the closure of Jubilee street from David Street to Water Street. There is seemingly no reason to keep this section open. The only business is the boathouse which doesn't have any parking that would need to be accessed (when it opens).

Agreed. I've suggested a similar thing. Access to the parking lots on each end and close the road through the park.

A provision for food service delivery to reach the Boat house might be needed but that shouldn't be difficult.

I also dislike Union dividing Breithaupt Park but that will never be closed.

I think a set of bollards in the middle, between Heins and the closest arm of Water, to prevent through traffic would be good enough.

[danbrotherston]

Agreed. I've suggested a similar thing. Access to the parking lots on each end and close the road through the park.

A provision for food service delivery to reach the Boat house might be needed but that shouldn't be difficult.

I also dislike Union dividing Breithaupt Park but that will never be closed.

I think a set of bollards in the middle, between Heins and the closest arm of Water, to prevent through traffic would be good enough.

"Good enough"...I mean, it's a park, if it isn't closed entirely, then children and families aren't going to feel comfortable playing in that space, and certainly you could never fully integrate it into the rest of the park.

I think traffic diverters are "good enough" for most residential streets, but not for the park.

[Bytor]

I think a set of bollards in the middle, between Heins and the closest arm of Water, to prevent through traffic would be good enough.

"Good enough"...I mean, it's a park, if it isn't closed entirely, then children and families aren't going to feel comfortable playing in that space, and certainly you could never fully integrate it into the rest of the park.

I think traffic diverters are "good enough" for most residential streets, but not for the park.

Except your adopted country does this all the time: modal filters.

It reduces traffic, slows speeds, but at the same time leaves it open as a cycling through route and maintains access for event set-up.

You may not live here anymore, but as a nearby resident, I like going to Ribfest, Bluesfest, and everything else that needs vehicle access to make happen.

[danbrotherston]

"Good enough"...I mean, it's a park, if it isn't closed entirely, then children and families aren't going to feel comfortable playing in that space, and certainly you could never fully integrate it into the rest of the park.

I think traffic diverters are "good enough" for most residential streets, but not for the park.

Except your adopted country does this all the time: modal filters.

It reduces traffic, slows speeds, but at the same time leaves it open as a cycling through route and maintains access for event set-up.

You may not live here anymore, but as a nearby resident, I like going to Ribfest, Bluesfest, and everything else that needs vehicle access to make happen.

There are exactly 0 parks in the Netherlands which are open to cars. Modal filters are used on streets, not parks.

All of your examples do not actually apply.

The park is a cycling route from Gaukel St. to West Ave, but not a car route, there is no reason cars must be allowed on a "cycle route".

As for special events, the great circle is where Ribfest is held, it isn't open to cars either, and yet somehow, we are able to host ribfest. The existence of "special events" is never a reason to permit general traffic.

The reasons to permit general traffic are convenience and access. I believe access can be maintained for all properties and parking lots without allowing traffic on (most of) Jubilee. My suggestion would be to close the one branch of Water (as the cycling plan suggested) and route the other onto Heins Ave. And then turn Theresa into a cul-de-sac using the extra space at the bottom. By allowing Park to continue south to the North parking lot and then Courtland north to the south parking lot, and close it in between, you can achieve access for all residents. And I argue that the added convenience provided by allowing the residents to access their roads directly (and of course of through traffic in the park) is not worth allowing cars in our park.

You're welcome to disagree of course, but I think it's value to discuss exactly what we are giving up and why. Because it isn't for special events or a cycling route, it's convenience for 100 or so homes, and nothing more, which isn't invalid, but it's important to keep it in context.

You might also suggest that a modal filter is a good way to start the process of closing the road, and I might agree with that, but I think a better option is what was planned for King St. prior to the pandemic...which is gradually increasing closed periods. You know...close it for special events, the next year close it for 10 weekends in the summer. Year after, close it for every weekend of the summer. Year after, close it every weekend....one day, one glorious day, it just never opens again. AFAIK this is how NYC managed to remove general traffic from Prospect and Central parks.

[tomh009]

You're welcome to disagree of course, but I think it's value to discuss exactly what we are giving up and why. Because it isn't for special events or a cycling route, it's convenience for 100 or so homes, and nothing more, which isn't invalid, but it's important to keep it in context.

I would think most traffic on Jubilee is not for the nearby homes, but through traffic from Park to Courtland. And I do think there is more of that now that Joseph is one-way only.

If you close Jubilee to traffic, that volume will move onto West and Homewood (and some additional volume onto Victoria and Queen as well). (NB the intersection of Victoria and West is already terrible and would really need to be reworked.) That might be a viable option but will surely raise the ire of homeowners on those streets.

I suspect that this proposal would provoke so much opposition that I don't think the Kitchener council would want to stir that pot in the foreseeable future.

[danbrotherston]

You're welcome to disagree of course, but I think it's value to discuss exactly what we are giving up and why. Because it isn't for special events or a cycling route, it's convenience for 100 or so homes, and nothing more, which isn't invalid, but it's important to keep it in context.

I would think most traffic on Jubilee is not for the nearby homes, but through traffic from Park to Courtland. And I do think there is more of that now that Joseph is one-way only.

If you close Jubilee to traffic, that volume will move onto West and Homewood (and some additional volume onto Victoria and Queen as well). (NB the intersection of Victoria and West is already terrible and would really need to be reworked.) That might be a viable option but will surely raise the ire of homeowners on those streets.

I suspect that this proposal would provoke so much opposition that I don't think the Kitchener council would want to stir that pot in the foreseeable future.

I agree, most traffic is through traffic, but Bytor was suggesting that a modal filter to eliminate through traffic, while maintaining local traffic for homeowners as an option. In that context, the only value being provided is convenience for local residents.

In general, I think you're right, council will not even consider it, but I think that it speaks to the absolute domination that cars have over our society, that the idea of eliminating through traffic through a public park is unthinkable.

I do think that doing as I suggest, closing the road during weekends in the summer is a viable route to actually closing it, if there was appetite for it on council, which there quite clearly is not. I think there's more interest in closing King, but that ship seems to have sailed now, given the current decline of downtown.

[panamaniac]

What has become of the (terrible) idea of removing Victoria's statue from it's location in the park? It seems to have gone dead quiet.

[danbrotherston]

What has become of the (terrible) idea of removing Victoria's statue from it's location in the park?  It seems to have gone dead quiet.

Not sure why the idea is "terrible"...I mean, there's precedent already, we don't have a statue of the Kaiser after all, and when I passed it last the plinth was significantly marked from being repeatedly cleaned.

In any case, it seems like things have quieted down in the park significantly, but I don't really think anything has been solved, the chronic problems will continue to be left to fester since the acute situation has abated.

[KevinL]

Yes, the indigenous/anti-colonialist push for that seems to have been shouted over by the encampent on the island and other issues. I hope it can regain some momentum and get, at least, a broad evaluation of its concerns.