What does DTK need?

[danbrotherston]

King St. already has very little parking and not much motor-vehicle-moving capacity. Shifting those few parking spaces into the always-available parking garages and the motor vehicles onto parallel streets (one block in each direction — Charles and Duke) would remove very few people from the street, but allow many more on it as pedestrians and cyclists.

I'm curious how the rise of food delivery services could impact the future of King St. There a very few non-restaurant businesses on King St (which is an issue itself; would you go to Fairview mall if it was 90% restaurants?), and the restaurants seem to have become highly dependent on food delivery services. I don't really know what closing King St to the couriers would do to them. Would they start declining orders from King St? Would fees for these restaurants go up? I don't think any added pedestrians from removing cars would come anywhere close to making up lost business if food delivery is significantly impacted, especially because I don't think cars are particularly big reason that people avoid downtown.

And don't get me wrong, I hate this current situation, especially with the amount of "perpendicular parking" (parking straight across the sidewalk) and double parking that I see. And I don't think it's healthy long term for the businesses or the area.

Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how much damage has been done by delivery companies masquerading as delivery companies.

[SF22]

I'm curious how the rise of food delivery services could impact the future of King St. There a very few non-restaurant businesses on King St (which is an issue itself; would you go to Fairview mall if it was 90% restaurants?), and the restaurants seem to have become highly dependent on food delivery services. I don't really know what closing King St to the couriers would do to them. Would they start declining orders from King St? Would fees for these restaurants go up? I don't think any added pedestrians from removing cars would come anywhere close to making up lost business if food delivery is significantly impacted, especially because I don't think cars are particularly big reason that people avoid downtown.

And don't get me wrong, I hate this current situation, especially with the amount of "perpendicular parking" (parking straight across the sidewalk) and double parking that I see. And I don't think it's healthy long term for the businesses or the area.

Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how much damage has been done by delivery companies masquerading as delivery companies.

Beyond the fact that UberEats and DoorDash drivers are incentivized for parking in illegal and irritating ways in order to minimize their travel time, those food delivery companies are also SO predatory to restaurants who already have such slim margins. I would love to see a return to restaurants having their own delivery drivers, like most Chinese and pizza shops do. Maybe the range in which they deliver is narrowed down some to make it manageable, but one or two drivers could have designated spots for parking (off Halls Lane, etc) and minimize how many cars are going in and out of the area. I would be happy to pay an extra couple of dollars for delivery if I knew that all the money was staying either with the restaurant or with the driver, and NOT with some massive company that only profits by inconveniencing and exploiting others.

[Chris]

I'm old enough to remember when there were four movie houses in DTK, a bowling alley, a number of bars, etc - it was busy at night, especially on weekends.  Add in the teenagers/twenty somethings cruising up and down King St and it could feel very lively indeed in the evening.

Just as fun exercise for myself I tried to remember the old theatres in downtown. I can remember these theatres at one time or another. I don't remember a bowling alley though, where was it?

Odeon, Lyric, Capitol, Hyland, Fox, Cineplex, and King's College

[danbrotherston]

Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how much damage has been done by delivery companies masquerading as delivery companies.

Beyond the fact that UberEats and DoorDash drivers are incentivized for parking in illegal and irritating ways in order to minimize their travel time, those food delivery companies are also SO predatory to restaurants who already have such slim margins. I would love to see a return to restaurants having their own delivery drivers, like most Chinese and pizza shops do. Maybe the range in which they deliver is narrowed down some to make it manageable, but one or two drivers could have designated spots for parking (off Halls Lane, etc) and minimize how many cars are going in and out of the area. I would be happy to pay an extra couple of dollars for delivery if I knew that all the money was staying either with the restaurant or with the driver, and NOT with some massive company that only profits by inconveniencing and exploiting others.

FWIW...I do think there is something to be gained from having drivers operate as a shared pool for food delivery, but a predatory silicon valley company is not a solution that works for anyone but VC investors.

I also think there is a problem when restaurants that ostensibly have a King St. facing location, are mostly focused on delivery.

This is actually something they talk about in the Netherlands and people take seriously, but I doubt anything more than 1-2% of Canada even notices....here it is the biggest issue with grocery delivery stores which are actually very common (for some reason, grocery shopping here is so easy, I have no idea why anyone would pay more to have it delivered) but a whole lot of these delivery companies have bought up prime realestate and operate "ghost stores"...basically they take up retail space but are closed to the public. Basically, they deaden the public realm.

Again, this would pass virtually unnoticed in Canada, but is a big deal here.

[dtkvictim]

Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how much damage has been done by delivery companies masquerading as delivery companies.

I also think there is a problem when restaurants that ostensibly have a King St. facing location, are mostly focused on delivery.

I agree they are damaging to the local environment in which they operate, but I assume you also mean something along the lines of damaging the local market and business ecosystem? In the latter case, I think they are simply fulfilling a genuine demand and we should be looking at that demand rather than simply blaming the companies fulfilling it. Why are people ordering food delivery at a large markup? Why are King St facing businesses to focused on delivery if it's such a bad deal for them?

Beyond the fact that UberEats and DoorDash drivers are incentivized for parking in illegal and irritating ways in order to minimize their travel time, those food delivery companies are also SO predatory to restaurants who already have such slim margins. I would love to see a return to restaurants having their own delivery drivers, like most Chinese and pizza shops do. Maybe the range in which they deliver is narrowed down some to make it manageable, but one or two drivers could have designated spots for parking (off Halls Lane, etc) and minimize how many cars are going in and out of the area. I would be happy to pay an extra couple of dollars for delivery if I knew that all the money was staying either with the restaurant or with the driver, and NOT with some massive company that only profits by inconveniencing and exploiting others.

I've thought about this as well. I think there are two main problems.

From the customer perspective, a replacement system needs to be as easy and discoverable as the existing apps. I think it might be harder for more social generation to understand, but people my age would rather not order food than have to pick up the phone and call someone. Personally, usually don't even consider restaurants that don't let me order pickup online unless I really, really want it. People want to pay digitally, people want their order in digital writing with no misinterpretations, people like GPS tracking, etc.

From the business perspective, I'm not sure they would give up the existing systems for a new, cheaper, local one. As it is, most businesses that use delivery apps use 2 or 3 delivery apps. I assume the discoverability of being on every app is more important to them than just picking the service with the lowest fees. So I can't see them giving up the existing services in favour of some delivery co-op, I can only see them adding it as an additional option.

[panamaniac]

I'm old enough to remember when there were four movie houses in DTK, a bowling alley, a number of bars, etc - it was busy at night, especially on weekends.  Add in the teenagers/twenty somethings cruising up and down King St and it could feel very lively indeed in the evening.

Just as fun exercise for myself I tried to remember the old theatres in downtown. I can remember these theatres at one time or another. I don't remember a bowling alley though, where was it?

Odeon, Lyric, Capitol, Hyland, Fox, Cineplex, and King's College

Odeon, Lyric, Capitol, and Fox were the originals, although the Cineplex opened back in the 70s (Hyland too?).

Going back to the original "was DTK busy" - if you go back even further, to the 1930s and 1940s, there was also the old Auditorium on Queen.   Super popular spot for roller skating, skating, and dances, I'm told.

[SF22]

Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how much damage has been done by delivery companies masquerading as delivery companies.

I also think there is a problem when restaurants that ostensibly have a King St. facing location, are mostly focused on delivery.

I agree they are damaging to the local environment in which they operate, but I assume you also mean something along the lines of damaging the local market and business ecosystem? In the latter case, I think they are simply fulfilling a genuine demand and we should be looking at that demand rather than simply blaming the companies fulfilling it. Why are people ordering food delivery at a large markup? Why are King St facing businesses to focused on delivery if it's such a bad deal for them?

Beyond the fact that UberEats and DoorDash drivers are incentivized for parking in illegal and irritating ways in order to minimize their travel time, those food delivery companies are also SO predatory to restaurants who already have such slim margins. I would love to see a return to restaurants having their own delivery drivers, like most Chinese and pizza shops do. Maybe the range in which they deliver is narrowed down some to make it manageable, but one or two drivers could have designated spots for parking (off Halls Lane, etc) and minimize how many cars are going in and out of the area. I would be happy to pay an extra couple of dollars for delivery if I knew that all the money was staying either with the restaurant or with the driver, and NOT with some massive company that only profits by inconveniencing and exploiting others.

I've thought about this as well. I think there are two main problems.

From the customer perspective, a replacement system needs to be as easy and discoverable as the existing apps. I think it might be harder for more social generation to understand, but people my age would rather not order food than have to pick up the phone and call someone. Personally, usually don't even consider restaurants that don't let me order pickup online unless I really, really want it. People want to pay digitally, people want their order in digital writing with no misinterpretations, people like GPS tracking, etc.

From the business perspective, I'm not sure they would give up the existing systems for a new, cheaper, local one. As it is, most businesses that use delivery apps use 2 or 3 delivery apps. I assume the discoverability of being on every app is more important to them than just picking the service with the lowest fees. So I can't see them giving up the existing services in favour of some delivery co-op, I can only see them adding it as an additional option.

But how amazing would it be if we had a Region-operated alternative? Something that is designed to benefit local restaurants and local residents, and puts money back into the region instead of sending it off to Silicon Valley. Instead of being profit-driven for the app, it could offer lower fees to the restaurants and pay their drivers a reasonable wage. You could have shared drivers, but each driver assists 3-6 restaurants within a close range, so they can park their car once and grab bags from Crafty Ramen and La Cucina and Cafe Pyrus in a single shot before heading out to deliver. You could follow the Region App on IG and they could share photos and videos of featured restaurants to help you discover something new. Just because we have UberEats right now doesn't mean we can't imagine something better.

[dtkvictim]

There a very few non-restaurant businesses on King St

From memory, and between Queen and Victoria (excluding restaurants and cafes): there are at least two dollar stores, five bars, three night clubs, a barber shop, a shoe store, condo sales/rentals, a pharmacy, four banks, a museum, a thrift shop, a concert hall, an LCBO, a beer store, a grocery store, a shoe store, a clothing/yoga store, two used book stores, and a bunch of cannabis shops. Not that I wouldn't like to see more, but it's not 90% restaurants.

Maybe this is just my biased individual perspective, but the fact I know about all of those businesses and still consider downtown to be 90% restaurants says something about the quality of type of businesses that you've listed. Maybe it's just because I don't drink, the I also consider the bars to just be restaurants (or an arcade in one case, though King St is debatable there). And I'm not really convinced the shoe store actually sells shoes and isn't just a front...

Out of everything you listed I think only the night clubs (and maybe concert hall) actually draw any significant number of people into the area, and that's for only a small number of hours each week.

[taylortbb]

But how amazing would it be if we had a Region-operated alternative? Something that is designed to benefit local restaurants and local residents, and puts money back into the region instead of sending it off to Silicon Valley. Instead of being profit-driven for the app, it could offer lower fees to the restaurants and pay their drivers a reasonable wage. You could have shared drivers, but each driver assists 3-6 restaurants within a close range, so they can park their car once and grab bags from Crafty Ramen and La Cucina and Cafe Pyrus in a single shot before heading out to deliver. You could follow the Region App on IG and they could share photos and videos of featured restaurants to help you discover something new. Just because we have UberEats right now doesn't mean we can't imagine something better.

The problem with all of that is that it's actually really hard to build a good app. Yes, anyone with a laptop and a little skill can build "an app", but if look at what Uber pays their engineers, and the number of that work on Uber Eats, they've spent literally billions of dollars on making that app such a smooth experience for both customer and restaurants. Even basic things like delivery time estimates are actually really difficult when working with pooled drivers. The only way to recoup that kind of cost is to scale, and serve cities all over the world. At that point you've just re-invented Uber.

I think expecting our small region to support an app that's remotely competitive with the major delivery services is just fantasy.

There could exist a lower-cost lower-quality app, with the main selling point being that it's local. But 90% of people aren't going to care about that, and are just going to use the better app that gives them accurate delivery estimates, and has the scale to offer delivery at 2am.

[tomh009]

Out of everything you listed I think only the night clubs (and maybe concert hall) actually draw any significant number of people into the area, and that's for only a small number of hours each week.

Making DTK a destination ("drawing people into the area") is a whole different level of discussion.

But, for people who already do live (or work) in DTK, there indeed are more than just restaurants and bars, reducing the need to drive/cycle/bus/train somewhere else.

[panamaniac]

I'm old enough to remember when there were four movie houses in DTK, a bowling alley, a number of bars, etc - it was busy at night, especially on weekends.  Add in the teenagers/twenty somethings cruising up and down King St and it could feel very lively indeed in the evening.

Just as fun exercise for myself I tried to remember the old theatres in downtown. I can remember these theatres at one time or another. I don't remember a bowling alley though, where was it?

Odeon, Lyric, Capitol, Hyland, Fox, Cineplex, and King's College

I forgot to mention - the bowling alley was The Strand.  It was upstairs in a building beside the old Dutch Boy, where City Hall plaza now stands.  It had pin boys rather than automatic pin setting machines - it was way retro even in the 1960s.

[danbrotherston]

From memory, and between Queen and Victoria (excluding restaurants and cafes): there are at least two dollar stores, five bars, three night clubs, a barber shop, a shoe store, condo sales/rentals, a pharmacy, four banks, a museum, a thrift shop, a concert hall, an LCBO, a beer store, a grocery store, a shoe store, a clothing/yoga store, two used book stores, and a bunch of cannabis shops. Not that I wouldn't like to see more, but it's not 90% restaurants.

Maybe this is just my biased individual perspective, but the fact I know about all of those businesses and still consider downtown to be 90% restaurants says something about the quality of type of businesses that you've listed. Maybe it's just because I don't drink, the I also consider the bars to just be restaurants (or an arcade in one case, though King St is debatable there). And I'm not really convinced the shoe store actually sells shoes and isn't just a front...

Out of everything you listed I think only the night clubs (and maybe concert hall) actually draw any significant number of people into the area, and that's for only a small number of hours each week.

People will use the app where the restaurants are. It’s why some of the sleazier apps lie about which restaurants they service.

And getting restaurants on board would be utterly trivial “we aren’t beholden to VCs and won’t fuck you in the ass with a rake”. Literally every restaurant would join in a second.

[dtkvictim]

People will use the app where the restaurants are. It’s why some of the sleazier apps lie about which restaurants they service.

And getting restaurants on board would be utterly trivial “we aren’t beholden to VCs and won’t fuck you in the ass with a rake”. Literally every restaurant would join in a second.

I'm assuming you meant to quote my post replying to SF22, so I'm replying under that assumption.

Yes, 100% the companies would immediately sign up to a public/co-op alternative. But I don't think that means they would drop support for other apps. The reason I think this is that I disagree with your statement that "people will use the app where the restaurants are"; a significant number of people will order from the restaurants that are on the app(s) they have, not the other way around.

You can look at many existing restaurants to see that this is true too

1. They aren't all exclusively on the one app that offers them the lowest fees, they are on many apps to maximize their exposure
   
2. Many self host online ordering (and sometimes even delivery) to avoid the app fees, but they still use the apps to maximize their exposure (often with higher prices on the apps to cover the fees)
   

[danbrotherston]

People will use the app where the restaurants are. It’s why some of the sleazier apps lie about which restaurants they service.

And getting restaurants on board would be utterly trivial “we aren’t beholden to VCs and won’t fuck you in the ass with a rake”. Literally every restaurant would join in a second.

I'm assuming you meant to quote my post replying to SF22, so I'm replying under that assumption.

Yes, 100% the companies would immediately sign up to a public/co-op alternative. But I don't think that means they would drop support for other apps. The reason I think this is that I disagree with your statement that "people will use the app where the restaurants are"; a significant number of people will order from the restaurants that are on the app(s) they have, not the other way around.

You can look at many existing restaurants to see that this is true too

1. They aren't all exclusively on the one app that offers them the lowest fees, they are on many apps to maximize their exposure
   
2. Many self host online ordering (and sometimes even delivery) to avoid the app fees, but they still use the apps to maximize their exposure (often with higher prices on the apps to cover the fees)
   

Yes, that was my intention to reply, but I hit the reply button but I did so on my phone so something weird happened.

1. I don't think that any of the apps offer particularly appealing terms. Some might be better, but all are bad.

2. Self hosting is different, the value of collective hosting is that you only need one app for all the restaurants, and you can browse them. There is strong incentive for the user to have only a single app. That value is lost to the user when every restaurant has it's own (necessarily low budget/clunky) order system.

The thing about restaurant ordering is that it is highly localized. The region could build a high quality app that works well, and they only have to compete in this local market. They COULD try to exclude the other apps by offering only exclusive deals, but I suspect if their benefit was large enough they'd really just win by default with restaurants. As for users, I think if they could offer a comparable user experience, and everything is 10-20% cheaper, I think they'd win pretty quickly.

But it only works because it isn't a VC startup that is expecting huge ROI.

And they might even get away with it. It might be a small enough market to pass unnoticed to the big tech companies. If Toronto tried something like this, the VC funded companies would simply spend money for a few months and essentially pay people to use their apps, killing the competition.

The "tech" industry is a joke right now (and I put it in quotes because I don't actually think any of these companies are tech companies).

[tomh009]

As for users, I think if they could offer a comparable user experience, and everything is 10-20% cheaper, I think they'd win pretty quickly.

I agree with that statement ... but is a 20% price reduction realistic? There needs to be a savings for the restaurant, too, in order for them to use this app. How high are the Doordash/UberEats/etc costs?