459 Mill St | 15, 21, 31, 40 and 44 fl | Proposed

[dtkmelissa]

The golf course would make a great Arboretum.  The club house could easily house a restaurant and programming space.

I would argue that it kinda is already a large urban park, as well as an arboretum, and a restaurant, and a community space. The building hosts events all year. I voted there.

Rockway isn't a stuffy inaccessible country club. Rockway gardens is used by tons of people, and it flows into the golf course. There is a trail and a paved path though the golf course which many people use all year round. You don't have to golf to walk on the property and enjoy the nature and the surprisingly pretty view of the Kitchener skyline.

Both courses turn a profit and employ dozens of people. Revenue goes directly to the city. Twilight is $27 which is by far the best rate to play golf you'll 

It's far from much of a revenue-maker for the city though. "The course makes a combined $500,000 of that a portion goes to course improvements, debt repayment for the course addition that took place in 2010. A dividend of $75,000 is returned to the city." https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/kitchener-m...-1.4738022

And when we see a downturn in the economy, that's often reflected in those (limited) revenues. Less than 10 years ago we see this headline: "Kitchener golf courses awash in red ink" https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-...d-ink.html

[panamaniac]

We don't need more restaurants and programming spaces IMO. Those things are all over the place. They come and go and always get replaced.

A public golf course in the city is waaaaayyyy more valuable to the public than that. As Joedelay Highhoe said anyone is free to access it anytime they want even if they are not golfing. The golfing is super cheap as well and since this isn't some elitist club in the suburbs or townships, it's super accessible to anyone who wants to spend a day out in the sun hitting balls with a stick. It's the perfect place for newbies. It is already a park too, in a way, just one with an 18 hole golf course. There are trails, a creek, a place to get basic food and drinks/alcohol, lots of trees and shade, gazebos, the beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens which indeed flows right into it and Flora Crescent makes for a nice calm street to stroll down, some small wetlands (very important as this is part of the Schneider Creek floodplain), lots of birds that love the area and so much more. In winter time, the Waterloo Region Nordic Sports Club also transforms the entire course into an entirely free cross country ski facility.

The entire area is already approved for intensive redevelopment as part of the Rockway PARTS plan so there is going to be no shortage of dense development going forward, so we ought to preserve this little jewel in the city because if it were to disappear, it would never come back. And considering we're redeveloping this part of the city with lots of new projects (this one, The Metz, numerous Vive projects and no doubt many, many, many more in the coming years) it makes more sense to preserve this recreational and green space for the new and existing residents who will be moving in.

Golf is a dying suburban idea of a 'sport' that the middle class worships to fulfill their American dream delusions. Since you love talking about your insider knowledge, I can tell you that the Rockway Golf Course is 100% planned to be sold for development and to create a big public park - which is a much more efficient and equitable use of land than a golf course. A handful of developers have submitted proposals to the city.

ps. the "beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens" really?! I almost choke laughing... that place looks like a tacky postcard from 1970s Wisconsin. So yeah I guess historic.

As the city's most visible make-work project from the Great Depression, and as the site of countless wedding photos, I would argue that it certainly is part of Kitchener's cultural and historical heritage.  It's also interesting as an NGO-maintained public space.

[ijmorlan]

ps. the "beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens" really?! I almost choke laughing... that place looks like a tacky postcard from 1970s Wisconsin. So yeah I guess historic.

What do you have against 1970s Wisconsin?

[tomh009]

Since you love talking about your insider knowledge, I can tell you that the Rockway Golf Course is 100% planned to be sold for development and to create a big public park - which is a much more efficient and equitable use of land than a golf course. A handful of developers have submitted proposals to the city.

ps. the "beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens" really?! I almost choke laughing... that place looks like a tacky postcard from 1970s Wisconsin. So yeah I guess historic.

As the city's most visible make-work project from the Great Depression, and as the site of countless wedding photos, I would argue that it certainly is part of Kitchener's cultural and historical heritage.  It's also interesting as an NGO-maintained public space.

Rockway Gardens is not really attached to the golf course and its size/shape is not ideal for development so I don't see why it could not continue to exist even if the golf course is repurposed.

[Momo26]

We are going to be left with little to no greenspace when development is all but maxed out. The newest projects and neighborhoods don't seem to do a stellar job. When I compare to some walking trails snaking through endlessly in say an Oakville (family there so have spent my fair share) or I imagine a Caledon (okay this is 'new town urban sprawl'), I feel like we lack. And I don't count having to drive to get to a trail or proper park (and yes I'm aware of the trails app). I'd almost have to drive to get to the Iron Horse realistically.

I say maintain the lands of the course. Open to seeing repurpose proposals.

But at these prices heck I'm tempted to take the whole non-golfing family to the club.

[panamaniac]

We are going to be left with little to no greenspace when development is all but maxed out. The newest projects and neighborhoods don't seem to do a stellar job. When I compare to some walking trails snaking through endlessly in say an Oakville (family there so have spent my fair share) or I imagine a Caledon (okay this is 'new town urban sprawl'), I feel like we lack. And I don't count having to drive to get to a trail or proper park (and yes I'm aware of the trails app). I'd almost have to drive to get to the Iron Horse realistically.

I say maintain the lands of the course. Open to seeing repurpose proposals.

But at these prices heck I'm tempted to take the whole non-golfing family to the club.

"These prices" ?

[Momo26]

Someone said $27 for a twighlight round of golf. Sounds on the lower end for such an expensive sport

[sevenman]

Someone said $27 for a twighlight round of golf. Sounds on the lower end for such an expensive sport

Actually $27 is correct.  That was the amount for the '22 season.  Doon also charged the same.

[westwardloo]

I am a golfer, So I personally hope the city never sells Rockway to a developers. City courses are a great way to introduce new players to game from an assortment of demographics. Having said that I get that most people see it as an elitist sport. If the city were to go down the route of reimaging or redeveloping the space. My hope would be for a public park at least the size of victoria park to be included. Most likely running along Schneider's creek, with possibly a new lake feature. Then a 9 hole pitch and putt in the section on the other side of the courtland.  I would also hope the city subdivided the property and layed out the street grid prior to selling off sections to developers, avoiding a situation where one developer gets to develop the whole property and determine the street system. If the city was truly forward thinking they would keep a couple parcels of the developable land for the region to develop affordable housing and a future city amenity like an aquarium or a first nations museum.

[panamaniac]

I think Rockway would be larger than Victoria Park, even without the portion south of Courtland, would it not?

[Joedelay Highhoe]

I do think it would be tragic to destroy a 90 year old municipal golf course, but I admit that the south side of courtland would be a great place for a sanctioned outdoor encampment.

I bet you could fit a few hundred sheds on the 4th/5th hole without disturbing the wetlands or wildlife. With those three holes gone, the rest of the golf course could be sold to developers for a really beautiful subdivision. They could honor the golf course's history by naming the new streets after the famous golfers who made rockway their home. Moe Norman Way. Gary Cowan Bvld?

And it's very on-brand for Canada: sell public assets to developers, leaving only a few giant companies with complete control of the industry. I hate Golf North almost as much as I hate Rogers and Bell. But if it's the only option, that's where the money will go.

[ac3r]

Yeah if we're going to destroy a historic golf course for the homeless we should just build actual homes, not sheds.

But if we're going to do that, then use some of the low density industrial parks that are a couple blocks away to the north. There's so much space available between Borden and Ottawa that could be used and then you can keep a perfectly usable public space for recreation.

[Bjays93]

I'm sorry but rockway should not be going anywhere, period. There is an abundance of parking lots, low rise commercial and residential as well as shabby, rundown and abandoned lots to be developed, and even if there wasn't rockway is a beautiful green space close to downtown.

Get rid of the golf course if you must (though personally I think it would be a shame) but it must remain greenspace.

On the note of golf being a dying sport that is a remnant of the American dream. Really? Golf is a fun and casual sport to play, yes there's a cost barrier I get that but considering golf a relic is rediculous. I'm 20 and have tons of friends who play, some regularly others only from time to time. And yes I get it I'm privileged and many of my friends are too but the point is there are plenty of young people who still enjoy the game and rockway is a great place to go do that at a reasonable price (no more money than going to the theatres or out for dinner, you pick and choose what you're willing to spend on)

[bravado]

I think there are reasonable points about golf as a use of public space:
1: long term decline in popularity
2: unusually inefficient use of space for a small number of people
3: high cost barrier of entry
4: not great for the environment, in general

Who knows what the future holds if private golf courses keep going away like the trend shows. Either way, I guess this isn’t related to 459 Mill St much…

[tomh009]

I think there are reasonable points about golf as a use of public space:
1: long term decline in popularity
2: unusually inefficient use of space for a small number of people
3: high cost barrier of entry
4: not great for the environment, in general

Who knows what the future holds if private golf courses keep going away like the trend shows. Either way, I guess this isn’t related to 459 Mill St much…

I really should move this discussion ...