459 Mill St | 15, 21, 31, 40 and 44 fl | Proposed

[ac3r]

Someday, I’d like to see the section of the golf course “south” of Courtland sold for high density development.  It’s all an easy walk to Mill Stn.

Why do you think that? People like to golf and this particular facility (along with Doon Valley) is able to offer cheap golf to citizens as opposed to "elite" private clubs that are in the suburbs or way outside the city limits and require a car to get to. There is more than enough low density industrial, commercial and office land surrounding Mill Station that can can easily be developed without destroying a prized recreational facility. Getting rid of the golf course would make as much sense as getting rid of parks and green spaces people enjoy. Not many cities can say they have a publicly owned golf course 2.5 kilometers from the heart of downtown and located next to a rapid transit stop.

[panamaniac]

Someday, I’d like to see the section of the golf course “south” of Courtland sold for high density development.  It’s all an easy walk to Mill Stn.

Why do you think that? People like to golf and this particular facility (along with Doon Valley) is able to offer cheap golf to citizens as opposed to "elite" private clubs that are in the suburbs or way outside the city limits and require a car to get to. There is more than enough low density industrial, commercial and office land surrounding Mill Station that can can easily be developed without destroying a prized recreational facility. Getting rid of the golf course would make as much sense as getting rid of parks and green spaces people enjoy. Not many cities can say they have a publicly owned golf course 2.5 kilometers from the heart of downtown and located next to a rapid transit stop.

Nothing against golf, really, whether on private or public(ish) land.  The rest of the course would still be available, whether for golf or other purposes.

[Joedelay Highhoe]

It would be absolutely tragic to destroy Rockway golf course (a classic parkland style course designed by the great Stanley Thompson). For better or worse, golf is played on 18 hole courses and removing 3 of the holes would ruin the classic, nearly 100-year-old, design.

I'm sure it will happen some day, but there is SO much other land available. Pave over Rockway Gardens if you want to destroy a bunch of giant trees and landscaping. At least the golf course provides revenue for the city, and outdoor recreation for thousands of people each year.

Or better yet, don't destroy Kitchener's rare green spaces and build higher density buildings in city owned parking lots and/or abandoned and run-down commercial buildings.

[tomh009]

If the golf course is ever closed, I would like to see (most of) it turned into a large urban park. That would provide outdoor recreating for far more people than a golf course -- an 18-hole course will probably only see a maybe three hundred people playing in the course of a day, whereas a place such as Victoria Park will see that in less than an hour. At about $50 for a round of golf (not including equipment!), it's still not an inexpensive sport, and very much out of reach for many people.

I'm not advocating that at the moment, but I suspect that the day will come when it's time to convert it to non-golf usage.

[bravado]

Is Rockway the one that barely pays any taxes or are my wires crossed?

[panamaniac]

It would be absolutely tragic to destroy Rockway golf course (a classic parkland style course designed by the great Stanley Thompson). For better or worse, golf is played on 18 hole courses and removing 3 of the holes would ruin the classic, nearly 100-year-old, design.

I'm sure it will happen some day, but there is SO much other land available. Pave over Rockway Gardens if you want to destroy a bunch of giant trees and landscaping. At least the golf course provides revenue for the city, and outdoor recreation for thousands of people each year.

Or better yet, don't destroy Kitchener's rare green spaces and build higher density buildings in city owned parking lots and/or abandoned and run-down commercial buildings.

The section of the golf course across Courtland is a later addition to the original course, is it not?

[panamaniac]

If the golf course is ever closed, I would like to see (most of) it turned into a large urban park. That would provide outdoor recreating for far more people than a golf course -- an 18-hole course will probably only see a maybe three hundred people playing in the course of a day, whereas a place such as Victoria Park will see that in less than an hour. At about $50 for a round of golf (not including equipment!), it's still not an inexpensive sport, and very much out of reach for many people.

I'm not advocating that at the moment, but I suspect that the day will come when it's time to convert it to non-golf usage.

The golf course would make a great Arboretum.  The club house could easily house a restaurant and programming space.

[Joedelay Highhoe]

If the golf course is ever closed, I would like to see (most of) it turned into a large urban park. That would provide outdoor recreating for far more people than a golf course -- an 18-hole course will probably only see a maybe three hundred people playing in the course of a day, whereas a place such as Victoria Park will see that in less than an hour. At about $50 for a round of golf (not including equipment!), it's still not an inexpensive sport, and very much out of reach for many people.

I'm not advocating that at the moment, but I suspect that the day will come when it's time to convert it to non-golf usage.

The golf course would make a great Arboretum.  The club house could easily house a restaurant and programming space.

I would argue that it kinda is already a large urban park, as well as an arboretum, and a restaurant, and a community space. The building hosts events all year. I voted there.

Rockway isn't a stuffy inaccessible country club. Rockway gardens is used by tons of people, and it flows into the golf course. There is a trail and a paved path though the golf course which many people use all year round. You don't have to golf to walk on the property and enjoy the nature and the surprisingly pretty view of the Kitchener skyline.

Both courses turn a profit and employ dozens of people. Revenue goes directly to the city. Twilight is $27 which is by far the best rate to play golf you'll find.

[ac3r]

We don't need more restaurants and programming spaces IMO. Those things are all over the place. They come and go and always get replaced.

A public golf course in the city is waaaaayyyy more valuable to the public than that. As Joedelay Highhoe said anyone is free to access it anytime they want even if they are not golfing. The golfing is super cheap as well and since this isn't some elitist club in the suburbs or townships, it's super accessible to anyone who wants to spend a day out in the sun hitting balls with a stick. It's the perfect place for newbies. It is already a park too, in a way, just one with an 18 hole golf course. There are trails, a creek, a place to get basic food and drinks/alcohol, lots of trees and shade, gazebos, the beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens which indeed flows right into it and Flora Crescent makes for a nice calm street to stroll down, some small wetlands (very important as this is part of the Schneider Creek floodplain), lots of birds that love the area and so much more. In winter time, the Waterloo Region Nordic Sports Club also transforms the entire course into an entirely free cross country ski facility.

The entire area is already approved for intensive redevelopment as part of the Rockway PARTS plan so there is going to be no shortage of dense development going forward, so we ought to preserve this little jewel in the city because if it were to disappear, it would never come back. And considering we're redeveloping this part of the city with lots of new projects (this one, The Metz, numerous Vive projects and no doubt many, many, many more in the coming years) it makes more sense to preserve this recreational and green space for the new and existing residents who will be moving in.

[nms]

Is Rockway the one that barely pays any taxes or are my wires crossed?

You might be thinking of the Westmount Golf Club.  They continue to be classed "Agricultural" in exchange for allowing public access to the property for things like cross-country skiing (and presumably other times of the year as well).

It would be absolutely tragic to destroy Rockway golf course (a classic parkland style course designed by the great Stanley Thompson). For better or worse, golf is played on 18 hole courses and removing 3 of the holes would ruin the classic, nearly 100-year-old, design.

I'm sure it will happen some day, but there is SO much other land available. Pave over Rockway Gardens if you want to destroy a bunch of giant trees and landscaping. At least the golf course provides revenue for the city, and outdoor recreation for thousands of people each year.

Or better yet, don't destroy Kitchener's rare green spaces and build higher density buildings in city owned parking lots and/or abandoned and run-down commercial buildings.

The section of the golf course across Courtland is a later addition to the original course, is it not?

If anything, Courtland may have been pushed south through the property.

[tomh009]

The golfing is super cheap as well and since this isn't some elitist club in the suburbs or townships, it's super accessible to anyone who wants to spend a day out in the sun hitting balls with a stick. (...)

Well ... super accessible to you and me, maybe. But we have a significant portion of our population that struggles to pay rent, needs to visit the food bank and/or resort to payday loans. I suspect for them, it's not super accessible -- whereas a normal park is very much so.

[panamaniac]

Is Rockway the one that barely pays any taxes or are my wires crossed?

You might be thinking of the Westmount Golf Club.  They continue to be classed "Agricultural" in exchange for allowing public access to the property for things like cross-country skiing (and presumably other times of the year as well).

The section of the golf course across Courtland is a later addition to the original course, is it not?

If anything, Courtland may have been pushed south through the property.

I don't really know, but since Mill St is much older, I'm guessing that today's Courtland follows what used to be Mill (hence the odd intersection where Mill St now ends).  Mill St would long predate the Rockway Golf Course, which opened during the Depression as did the Rockway Gardens.

[nms]

The Kitchener Historical Street Project (A University of Waterloo project that digitized historic maps), shows Mill St in 1923 following what is now Carwood Ave south (it previously terminated at what is now Sydney St in the 1879 map. There are no maps in the database between 1879 and 1923). The 1943 and 1955 maps don't show any change until Courtland heads south of Sydney St in the 1967 map.

Of course, the maps may or may not be accurate (especially if some of the earliest ones were more aspirational than actual)

[ijmorlan]

You can trace a route all the way from Kitchener to Galt. Starting on Queen at Mill. Follow these routes:

• Mill St. (remember it used to go straight across the tracks; the closing of the straight route came with the LRT)
  
• Carwood Ave. (old house right at the bend)
  
• Vanier Dr. (cut off by the expressway)
  
• Manitou Dr.
  
• Doon Village Rd.
  
• Stay on Doon Village Rd., don’t follow onto Doon Mills Dr.
  
• Doon Valley Dr.
  
• Walter Bean Grand River Trail (over the 401)
  
• Morningside Dr.
  
• Blair Rd.
  
• Stay on Blair Rd., don’t follow onto George St.
  

End up in downtown Galt. I wonder how long this trip took the last time it was possible to do without diverting onto newer routes, and when that was?

[urbd]

We don't need more restaurants and programming spaces IMO. Those things are all over the place. They come and go and always get replaced.

A public golf course in the city is waaaaayyyy more valuable to the public than that. As Joedelay Highhoe said anyone is free to access it anytime they want even if they are not golfing. The golfing is super cheap as well and since this isn't some elitist club in the suburbs or townships, it's super accessible to anyone who wants to spend a day out in the sun hitting balls with a stick. It's the perfect place for newbies. It is already a park too, in a way, just one with an 18 hole golf course. There are trails, a creek, a place to get basic food and drinks/alcohol, lots of trees and shade, gazebos, the beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens which indeed flows right into it and Flora Crescent makes for a nice calm street to stroll down, some small wetlands (very important as this is part of the Schneider Creek floodplain), lots of birds that love the area and so much more. In winter time, the Waterloo Region Nordic Sports Club also transforms the entire course into an entirely free cross country ski facility.

The entire area is already approved for intensive redevelopment as part of the Rockway PARTS plan so there is going to be no shortage of dense development going forward, so we ought to preserve this little jewel in the city because if it were to disappear, it would never come back. And considering we're redeveloping this part of the city with lots of new projects (this one, The Metz, numerous Vive projects and no doubt many, many, many more in the coming years) it makes more sense to preserve this recreational and green space for the new and existing residents who will be moving in.

Golf is a dying suburban idea of a 'sport' that the middle class worships to fulfill their American dream delusions. Since you love talking about your insider knowledge, I can tell you that the Rockway Golf Course is 100% planned to be sold for development and to create a big public park - which is a much more efficient and equitable use of land than a golf course. A handful of developers have submitted proposals to the city.

ps. the "beautiful and historic Rockway Gardens" really?! I almost choke laughing... that place looks like a tacky postcard from 1970s Wisconsin. So yeah I guess historic.