What does DTK need?

[tomh009]

I think this is the single most important discussion to have, if we want Canadian cities of the future to reflect the ideals shared in this community, more than discussing any of the ideals themselves. I've stated my frustrations and experiences before, but I don't think I've stated this as bluntly as I need to: I have long passed my breaking point living downtown, and it is providing a lower quality of life than any rural or suburban location I've lived in. Most critically I have lost my peace of mind, which is something I never expected living in Canada.

So, this is quite different from my lived experience, and most of the people I know in my building are similarly happy to live downtown, and do not express concerns about safety or peace of mind -- and neither are my colleagues at work concerned about safety (our office is in the heart of DTK).

Could this be because we are somewhat isolated from the streets inside our access-controlled condo building? Is that the difference? I don't know where you live so can't tell whether that's a differentiator. But my fellow residents, by and large, happily walk, shop, bike and eat downtown without feeling unsafe.

Now, most of the new DTK residents are living in access-controlled buildings, whether condos or rental apartments, so if that is the difference, those residents might be less likely to encounter the issues that you do.

[danbrotherston]

I think this is the single most important discussion to have, if we want Canadian cities of the future to reflect the ideals shared in this community, more than discussing any of the ideals themselves. I've stated my frustrations and experiences before, but I don't think I've stated this as bluntly as I need to: I have long passed my breaking point living downtown, and it is providing a lower quality of life than any rural or suburban location I've lived in. Most critically I have lost my peace of mind, which is something I never expected living in Canada.

So, this is quite different from my lived experience, and most of the people I know in my building are similarly happy to live downtown, and do not express concerns about safety or peace of mind -- and neither are my colleagues at work concerned about safety (our office is in the heart of DTK).

Could this be because we are somewhat isolated from the streets inside our access-controlled condo building? Is that the difference? I don't know where you live so can't tell whether that's a differentiator. But my fellow residents, by and large, happily walk, shop, bike and eat downtown without feeling unsafe.

Now, most of the new DTK residents are living in access-controlled buildings, whether condos or rental apartments, so if that is the difference, those residents might be less likely to encounter the issues that you do.

I suspect some of this might be due to interpretation. Walking around DTK you see people living in doorways, high on drugs, or having other issues. To you and I we might say, "I have no concerns for myself" others might say "I was nearly killed"...  Now dtkvictim didn't lay out explicit example, so I am exaggerating to make the point, but absolutely there are differences in our tolerance to issues we experience day to day on the street.

FWIW I agree with you Tom, although I also lived in a controlled access condo building virtually all of the people I knew in the building (including both  families and many seniors male and female), none had negative feelings about living downtown, and we all experienced plenty of issues even in our building, including a significant break-in and also fairly frequently homeless people sleeping in and occasionally pooping in our entryway. But nobody felt intolerably unsafe.

Further, we experienced more property damage and break-ins at our single family (albeit century--near downtown) home prior to moving to our condo.

[Acitta]

About 10 or 15 years ago, I was on King St. at Ontario and was approached by the most broken-down, unattractive crack "vendor of sexual services" who offered to do anything for me for five bucks. For me, that was the low point for downtown. It has gotten much better since then, IMO. I used to regularly see a drugged out woman standing on a street corner on King St. E. before the new Market was built. I haven't seen anything like that since. I am hoping that once the new condo buildings are populated, we will see more "regular" people on the street outnumbering any down and outers there may be. Maybe it is because I lived in Toronto in the '70s and '80s that I haven't found Kitchener's homeless particularly bothersome.

[tomh009]

Yes, we have a homeless population, sometimes with mental health issues, and there is a drug problem. These are societal problems, though, and evident in pretty much any mid-sized or larger city (and sometimes smaller ones, too). These are issues we, as a society, need to strive to solve or at least reduce, and I am encouraged by the more recent regional and city government actions in this regard (provincial, not so much).

But rampant crime and unsafe streets? I am not seeing it, and neither are my neighbours, unless this is referring to homelessness and drug use.

[ac3r]

Surely you guys are trolling with these claims - or you don't get out much.

Robberies, threats, assault and harassments have doubled since 2014. Crimes at businesses across the region have jumped 60 percent since 2020. Violent crime has also been on the rise. Fewer crimes are being solved - in fact it is at its lowest point in 20 years. The homicide rate in Waterloo Region is below the national and provincial average; in Ontario, that average is dropping whereas in Waterloo Region it has been rising sharply.

Fentanyl zombies and other flavours of addicts are one of the many causes of this (but not all), with large numbers of the users being homeless. 2021 saw 1113 overdose calls in Waterloo Region. If you look at the heatmap of these overdoses the vast majority all occur downtown Kitchener and Cambridge. Regarding fatal overdoses: 2020 saw 106 deaths, 2021 saw 99 and as of September 2022 there have been 55 but that number is no doubt much higher now. How do addicts - especially those living on the streets - get money for their drugs? Robberies, threats, assaults and sex work which are all crimes.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. The region has gone to shit in more ways than one but a big reason is the sudden explosion of homelessness, drug addiction, petty crime, targeted shootings/murders which often relate to drug related crime (trafficking etc). Anything not locked down in this region - especially downtown - will be stolen. The homeless will gladly steal from your car, your property, your business and perform whatever sex act you want for a few dollars to feed their addictions. Acting like this isn't really happening is just foolish to do. And it's a huge reason why people tend to have the attitude that the region and urban cores are once again going to shit despite the apparent renaissance we were entering a few years ago where things seemed to be improving. Who is going to open a business downtown if it's going to suffer from constant thievery or robberies? Who wants to hang out downtown when addicts will constantly harass you and do goofy bullshit in general? Who is going to want to walk around Victoria Park when it's infested with homeless addicts and Julian Ichim? Who is going to want to live downtown if every time they step foot outside they see addicts or have their car broken into? This is not the sort of environment people want to live in and experience in their day to day life and it will kill our urban cores the longer we permit it.

[TMKM94]

I doubt there are many chains that could open DTK locations without cannibalizing their existing location's sales... all the big chains have grocery stores close to downtown. I don't think the Sobeys on Highland would survive with an urban Sobeys downtown. I also wonder how the whole "retail apocalypse" is going to affect things, along with all the financial uncertainty these days.

There's a few chains that are doing okay, Dollarama is busy. Crabby joe's seemed to have survived the pandemic, though I've never been. I'm surprised Giant Tiger hasn't opened up downtown, but then again the Margaret ave location isn't very far. The old McDonald's in market square always seemed busy when it was open. I'm sure they could open the one near google and do decent business? I dunno if there's a pet store downtown anymore, but I imagine that's something a lot of people get delivered nowadays.

The Highland Sobeys seems to have the least investment of all the Sobeys stores. They should open an Urban Fresh location downtown and turn the highland location into a FreshCo. It would suit the demographic of the area much better, specifically with the amount of ethnic foods FreshCo stores have now (at least Westmount/Ottawa).

The Highland Sobeys is actually getting a massive Renovation right now. It just started near the beginning of this month.

[TMKM94]

I doubt there are many chains that could open DTK locations without cannibalizing their existing location's sales... all the big chains have grocery stores close to downtown. I don't think the Sobeys on Highland would survive with an urban Sobeys downtown. I also wonder how the whole "retail apocalypse" is going to affect things, along with all the financial uncertainty these days.

There's a few chains that are doing okay, Dollarama is busy. Crabby joe's seemed to have survived the pandemic, though I've never been. I'm surprised Giant Tiger hasn't opened up downtown, but then again the Margaret ave location isn't very far. The old McDonald's in market square always seemed busy when it was open. I'm sure they could open the one near google and do decent business? I dunno if there's a pet store downtown anymore, but I imagine that's something a lot of people get delivered nowadays.

The Highland Sobeys seems to have the least investment of all the Sobeys stores. They should open an Urban Fresh location downtown and turn the highland location into a FreshCo. It would suit the demographic of the area much better, specifically with the amount of ethnic foods FreshCo stores have now (at least Westmount/Ottawa).

The Highland Sobeys is actually getting a massive renovation right now. It just started near the beginning of this month.

[dtkmelissa]

I think that there's a real discussion to be had about whether or not we "want" to draw people downtown. Intuitively, it makes sense that we want to support our local downtown businesses by maximizing the number of patrons coming through. But there's the push-back from local residents who don't want the compromises that come with extra traffic and parking. There's also the considerable push-back against entertainment options like moving the arena downtown.

I think that we need to be focusing on two things to create a quality downtown: increasing the population of downtown residents, and building a good downtown transit hub. Bonus points if we can build our AAA active transportation networks and minimize passing-through traffic from cars.

Once these are in place, I think we'll organically see investment from private businesses like Canadian Tire or Lululemon.

Huh? Why would you not want to draw people downtown...? Of course we do! And big brands are a good way to do it. Local businsesses are great and everything, but not everybody cares, wants or needs to shop at them. Sometimes you just need to grab some clothes at a Zara or want to eat a McDonald's burger. You can do that in literally every big city in the world but you have to literally drive your car (or waste an hour on a bus) to go to the suburbs to do something so basic in Waterloo Region. And no, investing in transit hubs, bike lanes and other frivolous nonsense like that isn't going to bring many people downtown. Things people need will.

So long as we have a downtown that consists primarily of nothing but small local businesses and a few shops that close by 6PM, then the vast majority of people living in Waterloo Region aren't going to bother to come downtown (which is especially worsened with the zombie junkies that are living all over the place now). But I guarantee if you could wave a magic wand and have a bunch of popular stores open up, have some good entertainment venues, open up some mainstream food places, make the drug addicts disappear and so on, then people would likely flock down there. Your average citizen has really no reason to venture downtown and that is a problem.

Why we would want to make our downtown more like any other suburban neighbourhood mall is beyond me. What draws me downtown (and had me move just last month to be even closer to the core) is all of those small, local businesses, community events, transit, the market, and more active transportation and pedestrian-focused areas. I'd be curious as well, is there clear evidence that adding a few big box-stores to a downtown actually brings more people to the core as a whole? I know a lot of people say that, but I'd love to see if it generally plays out that way.

[dtkmelissa]

Yes, we have a homeless population, sometimes with mental health issues, and there is a drug problem. These are societal problems, though, and evident in pretty much any mid-sized or larger city (and sometimes smaller ones, too). These are issues we, as a society, need to strive to solve or at least reduce, and I am encouraged by the more recent regional and city government actions in this regard (provincial, not so much).

But rampant crime and unsafe streets? I am not seeing it, and neither are my neighbours, unless this is referring to homelessness and drug use.

As a neighbour of Tom's, I concur

[neonjoe]

The Highland Sobeys seems to have the least investment of all the Sobeys stores. They should open an Urban Fresh location downtown and turn the highland location into a FreshCo. It would suit the demographic of the area much better, specifically with the amount of ethnic foods FreshCo stores have now (at least Westmount/Ottawa).

The Highland Sobeys is actually getting a massive renovation right now. It just started near the beginning of this month.

Good, it seems to be the one that missed the last refresh of all the local stores.

[danbrotherston]

Surely you guys are trolling with these claims - or you don't get out much.

Robberies, threats, assault and harassments have doubled since 2014. Crimes at businesses across the region have jumped 60 percent since 2020. Violent crime has also been on the rise. Fewer crimes are being solved - in fact it is at its lowest point in 20 years. The homicide rate in Waterloo Region is below the national and provincial average; in Ontario, that average is dropping whereas in Waterloo Region it has been rising sharply.

Fentanyl zombies and other flavours of addicts are one of the many causes of this (but not all), with large numbers of the users being homeless. 2021 saw 1113 overdose calls in Waterloo Region. If you look at the heatmap of these overdoses the vast majority all occur downtown Kitchener and Cambridge. Regarding fatal overdoses: 2020 saw 106 deaths, 2021 saw 99 and as of September 2022 there have been 55 but that number is no doubt much higher now. How do addicts - especially those living on the streets - get money for their drugs? Robberies, threats, assaults and sex work which are all crimes.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. The region has gone to shit in more ways than one but a big reason is the sudden explosion of homelessness, drug addiction, petty crime, targeted shootings/murders which often relate to drug related crime (trafficking etc). Anything not locked down in this region - especially downtown - will be stolen. The homeless will gladly steal from your car, your property, your business and perform whatever sex act you want for a few dollars to feed their addictions. Acting like this isn't really happening is just foolish to do. And it's a huge reason why people tend to have the attitude that the region and urban cores are once again going to shit despite the apparent renaissance we were entering a few years ago where things seemed to be improving. Who is going to open a business downtown if it's going to suffer from constant thievery or robberies? Who wants to hang out downtown when addicts will constantly harass you and do goofy bullshit in general? Who is going to want to walk around Victoria Park when it's infested with homeless addicts and Julian Ichim? Who is going to want to live downtown if every time they step foot outside they see addicts or have their car broken into? This is not the sort of environment people want to live in and experience in their day to day life and it will kill our urban cores the longer we permit it.

"doubled"...I mean, I'm not going to look up the numbers to see if that's true because it doesn't matter. Our society is incredibly safe. If the rate doubled, it's still low. You are needing to see changes that are orders of magnitude to meaningfully change the safety in our society. It certainly does not mean things have "gone to shit".

And we absolutely have not had an "explosion" of targeted murders. You are spreading the kind of FUD that gets FOX News hosts their fucking jollies.

Stop drawing parallels between "seeing an addict" (which is not a crime or suffering in anyway beyond the pain of seeing another human suffering) and nuisance crimes like vehicle theft and extremely violent and dangerous crimes like assault and murder. These are three wildly different things, and equating them does not help anyone but realestate developers who want to pave our greenbelt.

But the worst thing you've referring to homeless people as an "infestation", that is an evil, dehumanizing thing to say.

This comment is not the sort of environment I want to experience thank you very much.

[danbrotherston]

Huh? Why would you not want to draw people downtown...? Of course we do! And big brands are a good way to do it. Local businsesses are great and everything, but not everybody cares, wants or needs to shop at them. Sometimes you just need to grab some clothes at a Zara or want to eat a McDonald's burger. You can do that in literally every big city in the world but you have to literally drive your car (or waste an hour on a bus) to go to the suburbs to do something so basic in Waterloo Region. And no, investing in transit hubs, bike lanes and other frivolous nonsense like that isn't going to bring many people downtown. Things people need will.

So long as we have a downtown that consists primarily of nothing but small local businesses and a few shops that close by 6PM, then the vast majority of people living in Waterloo Region aren't going to bother to come downtown (which is especially worsened with the zombie junkies that are living all over the place now). But I guarantee if you could wave a magic wand and have a bunch of popular stores open up, have some good entertainment venues, open up some mainstream food places, make the drug addicts disappear and so on, then people would likely flock down there. Your average citizen has really no reason to venture downtown and that is a problem.

Why we would want to make our downtown more like any other suburban neighbourhood mall is beyond me. What draws me downtown (and had me move just last month to be even closer to the core) is all of those small, local businesses, community events, transit, the market, and more active transportation and pedestrian-focused areas. I'd be curious as well, is there clear evidence that adding a few big box-stores to a downtown actually brings more people to the core as a whole? I know a lot of people say that, but I'd love to see if it generally plays out that way.

I don't think people are asking for big box stores. Big box is a specific architectural design for a plaza and store: single story, cheap construction, large surface parking. Instead I believe people are asking for retail downtown from major brands in a urban context (stores below apartments, no setbacks, no parking, etc.) I do think there could be more retail downtown, and I understand why people want that and think it might help. I think there are advantages to smaller brands, but for example, I have no idea where I would buy clothes downtown (or uptown for that matter). There might be smaller retailers, but I don't know them.

[plam]

Why we would want to make our downtown more like any other suburban neighbourhood mall is beyond me. What draws me downtown (and had me move just last month to be even closer to the core) is all of those small, local businesses, community events, transit, the market, and more active transportation and pedestrian-focused areas. I'd be curious as well, is there clear evidence that adding a few big box-stores to a downtown actually brings more people to the core as a whole? I know a lot of people say that, but I'd love to see if it generally plays out that way.

Yes, thanks! I was thinking of saying exactly that but, well, I decided to keep my mouth shut. But we don't really need to be exactly like everywhere else in the world with the same stores. That's a thing these days anyway. I mean here in Wellington I can go to lululemon or Starbucks or Foot Locker. Why is that at all appealing?

OK, it doesn't have to be big-box, but it still is super generic.

[ac3r]

Yeah it's not that I think we absolutely need mainstream corporate businesses all over downtown but they are strong businesses because they offer consumers easy access to goods and usually at cheap prices. There are always alternatives but sometimes what people need, they know they can walk right into a HomeSense, Zara, Canadian Tire, Starbucks, H&M etc and get it. It just offers people more convenient shopping opportunities and can likewise draw people downtown. If Karen and Ken need a new drill and set of car mats for their car and a downtown Canadian Tire is closer than going out to Weber & Forwell Creek Road in Waterloo then that's great. So they go down and get what they need. Then they might decide they're hungry or want a coffee so they wander around and discover a good local restaurant. Then perhaps they notice a bookstore and decide to go check that out. And maybe it's a hot day, so they pick up some ice creams and a cold drink and sit in a park for an hour.

Supporting small businesses is great and definitely preferable, but major chain stores are also necessary. A good downtown should have a good balance between the two. There are many reasons why you need a good mixture. For example not all people can afford to shop for groceries at a place like Marché Leo's and would prefer a FreshCo or Food Basics. Not all people have the patience to discover and shop at small local places, so knowing you can walk into a Canadian Tire to get a specific thing is easy. Or maybe teens going to school only have a bit of money for lunch, so a 3 dollar burger from McDonald's makes more sense than a 6 or 7 dollar burger from Union Burger or some even more expensive place.

Of course getting such places to open up in urban areas is economically risky. For example IKEA only opens stores somewhere if there are certain thresholds met (population being the main criteria), so it is a bit of a waiting game for us at the moment. However I'd still love to see some bigger stores open locations up downtown. Tim Horton's did and it's doing really well. Subway has a shop downtown too and they seem to have been successful. Starbucks is even planning to come back and IMO their coffee is junk compared to some of our great local cafes, but other people enjoy it so they decided to reopen.

[ac3r]

"doubled"...I mean, I'm not going to look up the numbers to see if that's true because it doesn't matter. Our society is incredibly safe. If the rate doubled, it's still low. You are needing to see changes that are orders of magnitude to meaningfully change the safety in our society. It certainly does not mean things have "gone to shit".

And we absolutely have not had an "explosion" of targeted murders. You are spreading the kind of FUD that gets FOX News hosts their fucking jollies.

Stop drawing parallels between "seeing an addict" (which is not a crime or suffering in anyway beyond the pain of seeing another human suffering) and nuisance crimes like vehicle theft and extremely violent and dangerous crimes like assault and murder. These are three wildly different things, and equating them does not help anyone but realestate developers who want to pave our greenbelt.

But the worst thing you've referring to homeless people as an "infestation", that is an evil, dehumanizing thing to say.

This comment is not the sort of environment I want to experience thank you very much.

Well the statistics are all there if you do want to actually see that crime, drug use, deaths and homelessness have in fact gone up. It doesn't matter what words you want to use to describe it, the proof is available to you.

Yes our society is incredibly safe, but at the same time it is becoming less safe than it has been previously. Why deny this? It seems like your response to this is very emotional, rather than approaching this objectively for what it is.

I'm by no means attempting to dehumanize people who suffer from homelessness, drug use or mental illness. I've personally struggled with addiction and mental illnesses for my entire life, using everything from fentanyl to obscure "designer" drugs you've certainly never heard of. I've been diagnosed with everything from borderline personality disorder to psychotic depression over the years. For that reason, I am comfortable calling things out for what they are because my own personal experiences allow me to fully understand things like what trauma can do to a person, what poor coping mechanisms result in, what desperation for drugs or money can force people to do etc. I have no reason to sugar coat things and believe me, the people on the streets talk this way too. Luckily these issues never fully consumed me and despite falling into an abyss many times I nonetheless managed to create a life where I've been able to live all over the planet, hold the highest academic degree one can achieve by completing a doctorate, achieve major contributions to society and so much more. This isn't meant to be "bragging", just acknowledgement that one can suffer from these sort of hurdles and overcome them. While not all these people may be able to or wish to aim so high, many are capable of great things themselves if they had the personal will power and help.

My point, really, is that these issues are becoming a huge problem that is evidently continuing to grow and grow and grow with very little help from anyone to change this. When anti-social, destructive, criminal behaviour is allowed to flourish it drags not just those directly suffering from it down but also everyday people like all of us here. All an addict needs to do to impact others is leave a dirty needle around and poke someone, possibly infecting them with HIV. Or maybe they squat a building and burn it down killing people. Or they steal from businesses and ruin someone's hard work. Or they die and their family has a piece of themselves ripped out of their heart forever. It's fucked up and shouldn't be tolerated, but we as a society need to find a solution and be honest about what is going on.

If this sort of stuff is not what you want to experience, then good, I guess. Leave it to people like the actual addicts, the homeless, NGOs and non-profits, medical professionals, social workers, politicians and urban planners and architects like myself who actually have lived experience and knowledge of this stuff to work together to solve these problems. These problems hurt cities - drastically. Remember NYC in the 80s? Detroit in the 70s? All of California right now? Those cities were completely destroyed in many regards due to things like crime, drugs, homelessness and awful economics. I don't want to see that happen to Waterloo Region because we've been there before and are finally rebuilding things again. But as these issues worsen, we need to be honest about them and find solutions so we help not only business owners and people living in the region, but also the transients and addicts who are dying by the dozens each year from drugs, cold, malnutrition etc.

Sure my way of talking about these things is blunt, I guess, but I'm far too old and lived to worry about being woke and politically correct.