What does DTK need?

[dtkvictim]

I guess I didn't make the point that I was trying to make as soundly as I hoped.

I sort of agree with your point, but a downtown that serves the entire city will always need to exist as a center for government, business, and city wide functions (events, demonstrations, etc). The issue is a lack of an alternative, offering what downtown offers while semi-exclusively serving you and your neighbour's needs and not those of the entire city.

To cite Jane Jacobs' "eyes on the street" theory, we should see reduced petty crime downtown if more people are frequenting there at all hours.

I'm skeptical about the size of the impact more people would have in our situation. Eyes on the street won't prevent crimes from people with no shame or perception of the world around them, and most petty criminals we have here face no consequences from the police, courts, or community even if more eyes cause more crimes to be reported, which I think is unlike her classic NYC examples.

[taylortbb]

Again I agree with the names you mentioned....Bring in a nifty Anthropology (think downtown Oakville), an H&M (think Queen in downtown Toronto), an anchor Canadian Tire (how is that Home Hardware? In Uptown fairing?), a Lululemon, Homesense.

I think we need a lot more people living downtown for any of that to be viable. Right now if you built it the people that live downtown would go there, but why would anyone else? If they're already getting in their car it would be way easier to go to the mall, where parking is abundant and free, than to go to the DTK H&M. You could make parking abundant and free in DTK by levelling buildings, but it wouldn't be downtown anymore.

That grocer Marchè seemed promising but holy hell, it's overpriced.  Like common look at the city you are in.

It's my closest grocery store, as I live at Charlie West, and I really disagree. It's built more upscale, which creates the perception of it being more expensive, but actually comparing like-for-like products... it's pretty close to Zehrs/Sobeys.

But I guarantee if you could wave a magic wand and have a bunch of popular stores open up, have some good entertainment venues, open up some mainstream food places, make the drug addicts disappear and so on, then people would likely flock down there. Your average citizen has really no reason to venture downtown and that is a problem.

I actually disagree with this. If I waved my magic wand and opened some retail stores in DTK, they'd be mostly empty and close shortly thereafter. Once someone has to drive, the suburban store is far easier to get to. Trying to make DTK a destination for suburbanites was the awful idea that lead to disasters like Market Square.

Stores survive in DTK other because they serve people that live in DTK (e.g. Starbucks), or they have a differentiated offering that isn't available in suburbia (e.g. Grand Trunk Saloon). This is why DTK restaurants do well, but there are no chain ones. There is no equivalent to Grand Trunk Saloon in the suburbs, so people deal with the inconvenience. A Kelsey's would flop in the same location, as it wouldn't be differentiated from the suburban Kelsey's.

If you want to see DTK like this, we either need to get more people living downtown, or fundamentally change how most North Americans get around to not be car first. The more people living downtown one seems far more feasible to me (especially as people's transportation choices are largely a product of their environment). That's why I want to see every proposed condo tower happen ASAP, and they add significant numbers of people with disposable income to DTK.

[ijmorlan]

And no, investing in transit hubs, bike lanes and other frivolous nonsense like that isn't going to bring many people downtown. Things people need will.

Transportation infrastructure is “frivolous nonsense”? Now I’ve heard it all.

[danbrotherston]

And no, investing in transit hubs, bike lanes and other frivolous nonsense like that isn't going to bring many people downtown. Things people need will.

Transportation infrastructure is “frivolous nonsense”? Now I’ve heard it all.

Haha...amazing.

That might be the hottest take yet.

[danbrotherston]

I guess I didn't make the point that I was trying to make as soundly as I hoped.

I sort of agree with your point, but a downtown that serves the entire city will always need to exist as a center for government, business, and city wide functions (events, demonstrations, etc). The issue is a lack of an alternative, offering what downtown offers while semi-exclusively serving you and your neighbour's needs and not those of the entire city.

Downtown is diverse and there are lots of people who live and work there. Some probably want more people downtown and some don't. I will say I have met some people who don't want more people downtown (living or travelling) and these people...well I won't make any commentary on their beliefs or values or personality, all I'll say is that I think they'd be much happier if they didn't live downtown.

To cite Jane Jacobs' "eyes on the street" theory, we should see reduced petty crime downtown if more people are frequenting there at all hours.

I'm skeptical about the size of the impact more people would have in our situation. Eyes on the street won't prevent crimes from people with no shame or perception of the world around them, and most petty criminals we have here face no consequences from the police, courts, or community even if more eyes cause more crimes to be reported, which I think is unlike her classic NYC examples.

I think I've come to two main conclusions here. (Like with available parking) the perception of crime is the only thing that matters, and that the amount of crime has little relevance to the perception. People won't come downtown when the media, their friends, their family, neighbours, (and the past 70 years of American import culture) has told them downtown is dangerous.

Whether downtown is actually dangerous, I think it has a higher concentration of crime, but I don't think it's actually unsafe. And I do think that Jane Jacob's arguments were...overly simplistic. People (generally) do like being around other people, and a busy street will feel safer than an empty alley. However, people also don't like different people. Downtown has far more diversity of people (both in race, and in people having life challenges like drugs or mental health problems). One of the points of suburbs was to isolate people from diversity. When you only drive places, you'll only encounter people who live near you, your friends, and your coworkers--which is a group of people unlikely to be diverse in life situation if not more broadly. Suddenly being face with a lot more diversity, will be scary to some people, no matter what Jane Jacobs thought.

And, FWIW, I think there is also a big safety perception that people face when going downtown that is accurate (although never talked about and only experienced by people who GO downtown rather than those who don't) and that is of danger from traffic. Most people probably don't do anything but drive places 99% of the time. That too is dangerous, but most people are completely desensitized to it. When you start walking on our streets and you have drivers threatening your safety constantly, and you experience our car focused infra as a pedestrian, all of a sudden you feel very uncomfortable and unsafe. Some people probably rightly recognize this, but some people might falsely attribute it to downtown.

[clasher]

I doubt there are many chains that could open DTK locations without cannibalizing their existing location's sales... all the big chains have grocery stores close to downtown. I don't think the Sobeys on Highland would survive with an urban Sobeys downtown. I also wonder how the whole "retail apocalypse" is going to affect things, along with all the financial uncertainty these days.

There's a few chains that are doing okay, Dollarama is busy. Crabby joe's seemed to have survived the pandemic, though I've never been. I'm surprised Giant Tiger hasn't opened up downtown, but then again the Margaret ave location isn't very far. The old McDonald's in market square always seemed busy when it was open. I'm sure they could open the one near google and do decent business? I dunno if there's a pet store downtown anymore, but I imagine that's something a lot of people get delivered nowadays.

[neonjoe]

I doubt there are many chains that could open DTK locations without cannibalizing their existing location's sales... all the big chains have grocery stores close to downtown. I don't think the Sobeys on Highland would survive with an urban Sobeys downtown. I also wonder how the whole "retail apocalypse" is going to affect things, along with all the financial uncertainty these days.

There's a few chains that are doing okay, Dollarama is busy. Crabby joe's seemed to have survived the pandemic, though I've never been. I'm surprised Giant Tiger hasn't opened up downtown, but then again the Margaret ave location isn't very far. The old McDonald's in market square always seemed busy when it was open. I'm sure they could open the one near google and do decent business? I dunno if there's a pet store downtown anymore, but I imagine that's something a lot of people get delivered nowadays.

The Highland Sobeys seems to have the least investment of all the Sobeys stores. They should open an Urban Fresh location downtown and turn the highland location into a FreshCo. It would suit the demographic of the area much better, specifically with the amount of ethnic foods FreshCo stores have now (at least Westmount/Ottawa).

[the_conestoga_guy]

And no, investing in transit hubs, bike lanes and other frivolous nonsense like that isn't going to bring many people downtown. Things people need will.

Transportation infrastructure is “frivolous nonsense”? Now I’ve heard it all.

When I originally mentioned the transit hub, I was thinking of my lived experiences as a student. Once a month or so, I would take the bus to the Charles St Terminal and have a half-hour layover until my Greyhound bus showed up. So I'd spend the time visiting the nearby book store and grabbing a coffee from Coffee Culture. This was so basic that I didn't think much of it, but in retrospect it was the only time that I ever visited downtown back then.

I don't expect that the volume of travelers would make a massive difference for the local shops. But I do think that it would increase the perceived amount of pedestrian activity, which could contribute towards rectifying the notion that downtown "looks dead."

Again, not a magic bullet solution, but an important first step with its own distinct benefits.

[dtkvictim]

Regarding retail, I think the Young Condo commercial units will be the trendsetter for downtown. They have great street presence, great location, and are large enough for some sort of chain. They will be more expensive for sure, but if a larger brand is coming downtown then I think these units would be near the top of the list.

And if they remain empty, well...

[panamaniac]

If they’re expensive, I wouldn’t hold out much hope for retail in them.

[tomh009]

to cite Jane Jacobs' "eyes on the street" theory, we should see reduced petty crime downtown if more people are frequenting there at all hours. Plus, the added tax revenues from the new businesses and residential property taxes could go towards expanding social programs for the unhoused.*

* Unless, of course, we decide to re-allocate budgets from other city programs to address this sooner

Is there some evidence of this pandemic of petty crime downtown, ignoring the consumption of illegal drugs? Because in the last seven years, I have neither been a victim of that, or been exposed to it -- apart from bicycle thefts, which are an issue in pretty much every city.

And, yes, the region is already spending money to provide housing for the homeless, and particularly for the people who have been staying at the various encampments this year. This has been in the news fairly regularly for the past six months, so am a bit surprised that you have not seen it.

[tomh009]

If they’re expensive, I wouldn’t hold out much hope for retail in them.

More expensive retail units need retail business with sufficient profit margins to support them. Lululemon or Aritzia, for example, of the chains. An upscale salon (Voila or similar), a high-end bicycle shop, a good restaurant -- there are many possibilities. And Charlie West sold their retail units fairly quickly.

[dtkvictim]

I sort of agree with your point, but a downtown that serves the entire city will always need to exist as a center for government, business, and city wide functions (events, demonstrations, etc). The issue is a lack of an alternative, offering what downtown offers while semi-exclusively serving you and your neighbour's needs and not those of the entire city.

Downtown is diverse and there are lots of people who live and work there. Some probably want more people downtown and some don't. I will say I have met some people who don't want more people downtown (living or travelling) and these people...well I won't make any commentary on their beliefs or values or personality, all I'll say is that I think they'd be much happier if they didn't live downtown.

Yes, I think I know the type of people you are talking about. I don't think I am one of them, though see below regarding being happier outside of downtown. My point was a little different though: I think it's an issue that people looking for denser housing, walkability, local shops, safe cycling options, and "good enough" transit only have downtown as an option. Downtown will always be downtown, which for many people is an inherent contradiction to being a neighourhood or community, and so people who feel like that feel like there is nowhere good for them to live.

I think I've come to two main conclusions here. (Like with available parking) the perception of crime is the only thing that matters, and that the amount of crime has little relevance to the perception. People won't come downtown when the media, their friends, their family, neighbours, (and the past 70 years of American import culture) has told them downtown is dangerous.

Whether downtown is actually dangerous, I think it has a higher concentration of crime, but I don't think it's actually unsafe. And I do think that Jane Jacob's arguments were...overly simplistic. People (generally) do like being around other people, and a busy street will feel safer than an empty alley. However, people also don't like different people. Downtown has far more diversity of people (both in race, and in people having life challenges like drugs or mental health problems). One of the points of suburbs was to isolate people from diversity. When you only drive places, you'll only encounter people who live near you, your friends, and your coworkers--which is a group of people unlikely to be diverse in life situation if not more broadly. Suddenly being face with a lot more diversity, will be scary to some people, no matter what Jane Jacobs thought.

And, FWIW, I think there is also a big safety perception that people face when going downtown that is accurate (although never talked about and only experienced by people who GO downtown rather than those who don't) and that is of danger from traffic. Most people probably don't do anything but drive places 99% of the time. That too is dangerous, but most people are completely desensitized to it. When you start walking on our streets and you have drivers threatening your safety constantly, and you experience our car focused infra as a pedestrian, all of a sudden you feel very uncomfortable and unsafe. Some people probably rightly recognize this, but some people might falsely attribute it to downtown.

I think this is the single most important discussion to have, if we want Canadian cities of the future to reflect the ideals shared in this community, more than discussing any of the ideals themselves. I've stated my frustrations and experiences before, but I don't think I've stated this as bluntly as I need to: I have long passed my breaking point living downtown, and it is providing a lower quality of life than any rural or suburban location I've lived in. Most critically I have lost my peace of mind, which is something I never expected living in Canada. I am ready to compromise on every urbanist value I hold to get it back, even if that means buying cars and moving to an unwalkable single family home. While cars are frustrating and degrade the public realm, and statistically are far more dangerous, it's ultimately the people (drug addicts, mentally ill, and regular "bad" people) who have broken me, and are the reason I will leave.

You are right that perception of safety is more important than actual safety, but I disagree that the current perception is borne entirely out of ignorance. I held completely positive or neutral views of downtown's safety despite my non-urban upbringing, and it wasn't until living downtown that my views changed. My childhood friends from the city are slightly biased; while ethnically very diverse they are almost exclusively suburban and university educated. After I moved downtown I had a lot of discussions with them where the defended downtown, just like I would have. Now a number of them have moved to downtown Toronto, had similar experiences to me, and suddenly changed their tune. Read online posts from urban normies (i.e. non urban planning enthusiasts) in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, etc. and you will find what I've written in much less pleasant terms and in quantities to last you for the rest of your life. The perception of a lack of safety isn't just scare tactics from ignorant suburbanite boomers (though they exist)... there are underlying truths or trends like most stereotypes. The defense of downtown shown in this community is the product of an echo-chamber... I haven't met a single downtown resident in real life (offline) that feels so positive, and most have already left (usually as soon as they find a female partner - a situation which for me has more than double the strength of my viewpoints).

I don't mean for this to be overwhelmingly negative, but I think this discussion precedes any other urban improvements. There is already so much to love about downtown, but the sum of all that I love still doesn't replace my peace of mind - and I need it back.

[the_conestoga_guy]

to cite Jane Jacobs' "eyes on the street" theory, we should see reduced petty crime downtown if more people are frequenting there at all hours. Plus, the added tax revenues from the new businesses and residential property taxes could go towards expanding social programs for the unhoused.*

* Unless, of course, we decide to re-allocate budgets from other city programs to address this sooner

Is there some evidence of this pandemic of petty crime downtown, ignoring the consumption of illegal drugs? Because in the last seven years, I have neither been a victim of that, or been exposed to it -- apart from bicycle thefts, which are an issue in pretty much every city.

And, yes, the region is already spending money to provide housing for the homeless, and particularly for the people who have been staying at the various encampments this year. This has been in the news fairly regularly for the past six months, so am a bit surprised that you have not seen it.

dtkvictim illustrated some points that I'm poorly trying to make re: the perception of safety. You're correct that crime isn't super common downtown, yet people still feel like it's sketchy and don't want to visit. It's because their lived experiences or biases or prejudices make them feel unsafe. I'm trying to focus on the question: How to we fix that?

As it exists now - after 6pm or so - I'd estimate that the number of homeless people downtown represent 10-50% of the people that I walk past, with the greater share occurring later in the night. Compare this with a place like Toronto, which has many more homeless, but the share of them that you see in the overall sample of people is considerably less. Does this mean that Toronto is safer? No. But it certainly feels safer, especially when you stick to the high-traffic areas. 

I've personally lived downtown, and my job is downtown, so I know that 99.99% of these people are completely harmless and are quite pleasant to chat with. I'm also a 6'4 220lb guy, so I generally feel safe anywhere regardless.

My experiences have shaped my opinion - that the problem isn't that bad and downtown is mostly fine. But I also know that my opinion isn't shared by my suburbanite colleagues. I've also talked with women who don't feel safe walking out alone at night, for very valid reasons.

I've seen the news that there is an effort being made to provide more housing to the encampment residents. However, I drive past the camp on Victoria/Weber fairly often and I haven't noticed a drastic reduction in the number of residents. If anything, it looks like it's expanding further onto the opposite corner of the intersection. Solving our homeless crisis isn't my area of expertise, and this is obviously a complex problem, hence I'd like to provide more money to the people who are working to solve it. 

My overall point that I'm trying to make is that I would like to see more pedestrian activity downtown. There's a million ways to achieve this. I'm personally championing to build more downtown housing and to build the transit hub, but those are only two individual steps on a larger path. I don't want to look at the status quo and think that it's good enough.

[danbrotherston]

Is there some evidence of this pandemic of petty crime downtown, ignoring the consumption of illegal drugs? Because in the last seven years, I have neither been a victim of that, or been exposed to it -- apart from bicycle thefts, which are an issue in pretty much every city.

And, yes, the region is already spending money to provide housing for the homeless, and particularly for the people who have been staying at the various encampments this year. This has been in the news fairly regularly for the past six months, so am a bit surprised that you have not seen it.

dtkvictim illustrated some points that I'm poorly trying to make re: the perception of safety. You're correct that crime isn't super common downtown, yet people still feel like it's sketchy and don't want to visit. It's because their lived experiences or biases or prejudices make them feel unsafe. I'm trying to focus on the question: How to we fix that?

As it exists now - after 6pm or so - I'd estimate that the number of homeless people downtown represent 10-50% of the people that I walk past, with the greater share occurring later in the night. Compare this with a place like Toronto, which has many more homeless, but the share of them that you see in the overall sample of people is considerably less. Does this mean that Toronto is safer? No. But it certainly feels safer, especially when you stick to the high-traffic areas. 

I've personally lived downtown, and my job is downtown, so I know that 99.99% of these people are completely harmless and are quite pleasant to chat with. I'm also a 6'4 220lb guy, so I generally feel safe anywhere regardless.

My experiences have shaped my opinion - that the problem isn't that bad and downtown is mostly fine. But I also know that my opinion isn't shared by my suburbanite colleagues. I've also talked with women who don't feel safe walking out alone at night, for very valid reasons.

I've seen the news that there is an effort being made to provide more housing to the encampment residents. However, I drive past the camp on Victoria/Weber fairly often and I haven't noticed a drastic reduction in the number of residents. If anything, it looks like it's expanding further onto the opposite corner of the intersection. Solving our homeless crisis isn't my area of expertise, and this is obviously a complex problem, hence I'd like to provide more money to the people who are working to solve it. 

My overall point that I'm trying to make is that I would like to see more pedestrian activity downtown. There's a million ways to achieve this. I'm personally championing to build more downtown housing and to build the transit hub, but those are only two individual steps on a larger path. I don't want to look at the status quo and think that it's good enough.

Unfortunately, I don't think we solve this except by solving our major systemic problems of housing affordability and weak social safety net.

FWIW...I think you will find similar attitudes about DT Toronto despite the difference. The problem is the perception.