Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[nms]

Tear up the pavement but leave the bus shelters. Put a picnic table or two in each bus bay and turn it into a temporary green space and picnic area. The terminal building could be used a temporary event space. Given that Victoria Park's theoretical capacity is around 10,000 people, and Statistics Canada records about 30,000 people living in the area around the park, any more space would be welcome.

[ac3r]

The problem with turning the existing building into a usable space is that it's falling apart. Multiple roof leaks, the basement is flooded, there are broken taps that have been leaking water since it closed, the elevators are pretty sketchy and the inside has been more or less gutted (everything from toilets to seating to lights being removed). Unless someone nice donates a lot of money to fix that up, I can tell you that the Region of Waterloo has no desire to fix anything in the building at this point.

[REnerd]

Tear it all up and demolish the building.  Plant trees and grass.

A bigger Victoria Park will never be looked back on as a mistake.  This is a one time opportunity to make an amazing central park.

[panamaniac]

Given the value of the site, might there not be merit in selling it and using the money to acquire land for other green space in DTK?

[danbrotherston]

Given the value of the site, might there not be merit in selling it and using the money to acquire land for other green space in DTK?

Probably not, there aren't any other effectively empty plots in the downtown.

Expanding the park is a worthy goal, but I don't necessarily think the whole site needs to be used for that.

[ijmorlan]

The problem with turning the existing building into a usable space is that it's falling apart. Multiple roof leaks, the basement is flooded, there are broken taps that have been leaking water since it closed, the elevators are pretty sketchy and the inside has been more or less gutted (everything from toilets to seating to lights being removed). Unless someone nice donates a lot of money to fix that up, I can tell you that the Region of Waterloo has no desire to fix anything in the building at this point.

Do you have some insight into how this happens?

I mean some of it I understand; if the roof is leaking, that makes sense because putting off maintenance could be a reasonable thing to do if the building will no longer be used. But broken taps? Shouldn’t somebody have turned off the water to any non-operational fixtures? I mean, who is paying the water bill? And if things have been removed, it seems to me that shouldn’t have happened without Council explicitly voting that the building should be considered surplus to requirements. For that matter, even putting off the roof maintenance should only be done if the building has been positively determined to be surplus.

[ac3r]

I suppose it's us paying the water bill through taxes. I know when I was touring the building, I asked why these taps were not fixed. They stated that the Region of Waterloo didn't want to invest in repairs since it was not being used for anything but testing, but...surely the cost of water is more than the cost to repair a sink?

As for other things being removed, it was a lot of the old wooden benches and other equipment that was left over after they closed the place. I don't know why they would have removed them since the testing centre wasn't using much of the building besides the area near the tent, two or three offices and a staff break room. It appeared that removed everything except the old booths in the restaurant as well.

For the leaky roof, I guess they just deemed it was not worth the repair. It didn't appear to be a bad leak or anything, just drops coming in certain areas on rainy days.

I'm surprised they gutted it so fast because as you said, they didn't seem to vote on what would be done with the property . They just closed it, removed at much as they could and then had plans to keep it closed until the pandemic worsened. They do in periodic maintenance on the air system since it's controlling the air that is pumped into the tent, but minor fixes like taps and a leaky roof and foundation were deemed not worth the cost.

[jeffster]

The thing with the terminal is that it wasn't that old. It sort of sucks because it had been somewhat of a focal point for DTK and a great way to get there from anywhere in the city. When they were building it, back in the mid-80's, it was supposed to have a longer lifespan than 30 years.

[ijmorlan]

I suppose it's us paying the water bill through taxes. I know when I was touring the building, I asked why these taps were not fixed. They stated that the Region of Waterloo didn't want to invest in repairs since it was not being used for anything but testing, but...surely the cost of water is more than the cost to repair a sink?

Thanks for the info.

Yes, it is inconceivable that it is cheaper to leave the water running than to fix it. I mean, a proper fix isn’t even needed — just cap the water supply to the entire bathroom, or maybe even just turn it off at the water meter (if the building plumbing is entirely unused).

[ac3r]

Yeah all they would have to do is turn the water off. Leaky is an understatement to be honest. Turn on your kitchen tap as high as it'll go and that's how much water was pouring out of two sinks. I'm not sure if they've been doing that since 2018 or 2019 (I can't remember when they closed the building) or if all of the water was turned off until they reopened the building as a testing centre. If it was the former, then they've been wasting an inconceivable amount of water for the last couple years.

[tomh009]

Given the value of the site, might there not be merit in selling it and using the money to acquire land for other green space in DTK?

The region owns the properties. And the region is unlikely to build (or extend) parks in Kitchener.

[ac3r]

You know...I wouldn't mind if we built a new art gallery here. This would be a very good location to build a really large one. It could house a permanent collection of older, modernist and contemporary works. It could hold multiple galleries allowing for a constant rotation of different exhibitions, as well as a performance space and an auditorium for things like lectures or film screenings, a library for art and cultural books and media, perhaps classrooms to teach youth and adults various programs relating to art, restaurants and shops as well as a well designed public square that could act as an expansion of Victoria Park. The region could hire a really good architect to create a one of a kind building too, using a nice contemporary style that could maybe go on to win awards and recognition.

I know we have a few galleries across the region already. And one might argue that the Centre in the Square already fulfils the role of a large gallery and performance space, but it's getting old. The region is projected to hit 800'000 people by 2040 although I am very certain we'll hit that much sooner since the region has consistently hit population projections years before the actual projection dates, so we're going to need a larger space at some point. Waterloo Region doesn't have a very strong arts and culture scene and that's a real shame. Now that we're a rapidly growing region and a very important one at that, we ought to ensure our arts and culture grow and evolve along with us. A well designed, expertly directed gallery is a must in any important city and what better place to build one that in the heart of the main downtown next to city hall, a pedestrian street, 44 Guakle which already acts as an arts studio space and a beautiful city park.

[panamaniac]

The current KWAG is excellent, but it does need expansion - the space to exhibit the permanent collection (over 4,000 works, I think) is seriously lacking.

[ac3r]

KWAG is fine, but very small for a region of our size. Keep in mind it opened up in 1980 which was quite a long time ago at this point. We outgrew it and a new gallery in the heart of downtown would be nice to see. Centre in the Square could take over the remainder of the space where the current KWAG is and then expand their facility for their stuff, then we could dedicate a new building specifically to arts and culture and enrich the region with that. Arts and cultural investment is often overlooked but it remains one of the most important things in a society to sustain.

[nms]

Why not have both? Plan for a building with a green roof that slopes towards Victoria Park. Park users could enjoy the generally south facing slope (which I realize could take away from south facing windows for the gallery space, but I think most art galleries prefer not to have natural (UV) light flowing into their spaces). It could become a natural amphitheater for outdoor concerts or performances if shaped right.

To go completely outside the envelope, figure out how to drape new green space up and over the parking garage at the King Centre property and the across Water St and over the parking lot. Since the area used be very hilly (hence a long lost name of "Sand Hills") it could be an option to mimic what used to be in the area.

The new green space could be a kind of proto Rail Deck / High Line Park on top of whatever happens on that parking lot. Maybe figure out how to shoot a green path and/or cycling path north over top of the train tracks and intersect at the new station. New York has their High Line (2.33km) and Paris has their Promenande Plantée (4.7km), so why not imagine something similar here? One can dream...