The Aud

[jeffster]

The Aud has no melting pit. I have no idea where you got that idea. The main arena dumps at the parking lot along Military Road. Most people won't see the snow dumped from the twin pads, it's dumped out back.

I saw one there when I was younger, but even if that is the case,  they are installed at many arenas.  My main point is that dumping the snow in a downtown arena is not an issue.  They dont dump it outside at major arenas in downtown's... Scotia Bank arena in Toronto, have you ever seen snow from the ice dumped outside ?

The Aud has a very small pit that is used for excess snow and water that is left behind by the Zamboni/Olympia machines.

I'm not saying that it's not technically feasible for a snow pit, I am saying that the city isn't likely to spend extra money to melt snow with their current 'green' agenda. But who knows, if they want it bad enough at that location, who knows. There is going to be a lot of other stuff they need to figure out as well.

[jeffster]

As for dumping it at Victoria Park -- not the worst idea I've heard, though it would be a bit of a drive for the ice resurfacer and would wear out the studs on the tires that much more quickly. The paint that is used shouldn't be dangerous to the environment (it's water based).

I assume that if it were dumped there a dump truck would move it from the arena to the dumping site. I can’t imagine anybody would drive a Zamboni the equivalent of a block or more after each flood to drop the shavings.

That would seem silly actually if they did Zamboni it out to Victoria Park, tho funny as hell, especially if they did a coffee run at Tim Hortons. I doubt they'd hire a truck though to dump it tho, lots of expense just with that (not just a truck, but a front loader to fill dump truck).

[tomh009]

I assume that if it were dumped there a dump truck would move it from the arena to the dumping site. I can’t imagine anybody would drive a Zamboni the equivalent of a block or more after each flood to drop the shavings.

That would seem silly actually if they did Zamboni it out to Victoria Park, tho funny as hell, especially if they did a coffee run at Tim Hortons. I doubt they'd hire a truck though to dump it tho, lots of expense just with that (not just a truck, but a front loader to fill dump truck).

A pit would be much more cost-effective in the long run. And it would save space, too.

[ijmorlan]

A pit would be much more cost-effective in the long run. And it would save space, too.

Does anybody know how typical arena snow pits work? I mean, does the snow just gradually melt, or is it heated to melt it, or something else? I was thinking it might work to have it build up over the course of the winter, but use a fan to bring in warm air during the warmer months so that by the next winter it’s empty again. Of course this would require a pretty big pit for a heavily used surface.

[jwilliamson]

What do arenas typically do with the waste heat from the coolers for the rink? Would it be feasible to use that to melt the ice in a pit?

[tomh009]

What do arenas typically do with the waste heat from the coolers for the rink? Would it be feasible to use that to melt the ice in a pit?

That's exactly what they do -- use the heat from the ice refrigeration equipment.
https://arenaguide.ca/portfolio-item/snow-melt-pit/

[jeffster]

What do arenas typically do with the waste heat from the coolers for the rink? Would it be feasible to use that to melt the ice in a pit?

That's exactly what they do -- use the heat from the ice refrigeration equipment.
https://arenaguide.ca/portfolio-item/snow-melt-pit/

That can use heat excess heat from when the ammonia (or another refrigerant -- ammonia is generally used though) is compressed. Basically circulate the water used to cool the compressors (about 94ºF). We actually had a discussion at work about this, and why they don't. Some of the issues they said were maintenance issues (more moving part equals more problems), different rentals require different temperature settings for the ice (for example, figure skaters want ice that is warmer than what a hockey player wants) - so if you're allowing the ice temperatures to increase, there is no load on the compressors, and you have no heat to release. But for sure, if the city really wanted to have a DT arena, they could use whatever method of removing the snow in an ice pit that they want, it'll just cost them more than what they spend now. I think though I'd have bigger concerns regarding the old transit hub. I think if they really wanted it to work, they'd need to at least purchase the property (the old post office) across the street and close off part of Joseph and integrate the entire sports complex into Victoria Park.

[jamincan]

This discussion about arena snow disposal is not something I had really given much thought to, so I find the discussion interesting. Nevertheless, I would be astonished if it factored into the decision on location. They would likely choose the location, and then, given the constraints, determine the most environmentally friendly way of disposing of the snow.

For what it's worth, heat is generally something we have in abundance and usually we go to great lengths to get rid of it, even in the winter. I'm sure an environmentally-friendly snow melt-pit is feasible.

[jeffster]

For what it's worth, heat is generally something we have in abundance and usually we go to great lengths to get rid of it, even in the winter. I'm sure an environmentally-friendly snow melt-pit is feasible.

There are, as others have mentioned, with a heat exchange (taking heat from the refrigeration plant) to melt the snow. There are also concerns with this method, such as maintenance issues, but also health and safety. In layman's terms, it's best to have the plant do what it was primarily designed to do, remove heat from the ice pad.

I am unsure of how many government facilities use a heat exchanger, for whatever reason (can be to help heat the arena, heat water for the showers, or use the heat to melt snow) many choose not to use one.

[westwardloo]

Not saying anything like this can happen in this region, but look what the private money is proposing in Hamilton. This is one of two different proposals ranging from $200-500 million. Where is our big money developers? Maybe the city can come up with a create way to get a new arena built, maybe build it on the current Aud land, and give the developer the excess land to build hotels/ condos/ office towers who knows, rezone the whole piece of land to allow a large scale mix-use development for the developer to recoup the cost of constructing a new arena. 

New renderings of Vrancor Group's vision for FirstOntario Centre in Hamilton...


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr

The arena in it's current state:

Google Street View | FirstOntario Centre, Hamilton, Ontario


Quote:
CBC Hamilton | Vrancor has a $200M plan for Hamilton's downtown entertainment facilities

Another group that includes Carmen's and LiUNA has a $500M plan

By Samantha Craggs | January 29, 2019

One of the city's biggest developers says he has a $200-million plan to redevelop Hamilton's aging downtown entertainment facilities, and build two new office buildings to boot.

And unlike a recent proposal to put an arena at Lime Ridge Mall, there's no public money involved.

Darko Vranich, president of Vrancor, said he wants to redevelop FirstOntario Centre, FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre. That includes revamping the arena and attaching two mid-rise office buildings to it, as well as expanding the Hamilton Convention Centre and renovating FirstOntario Concert Hall.

"We've been working with architects who specialize in arenas and convention centres," said Mario Frankovitch, Vrancor's project advisor. "We've been working on this for months now."

A group called Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (HUPEG) is making a $500-million pitch to council to revive the facilities too. That includes Carmen's Group, LiUNA, Fengate Capital, Meridian Credit Union, Paletta International and the Joyce family.

Both groups have submitted term sheets, and councillors are expected to discuss both pitches on Feb. 5. Whichever proposal wins, Frankovich said, what's good for downtown is good for everyone.

"From the perspective of Vrancor, having something happen that is positive in the downtown core is good news," he said. "The visions are slightly different, and that is why we're looking forward to going forward with the vision as imagined by Darko."

The proposals come as council recently nixed a proposal from Cadillac Fairview and the Hamilton Bulldogs hockey team. That team wanted to build a 6,000-seat arena at Lime Ridge mall, which would've required millions in public dollars for a facility that would remain on private property.

Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer pledged $30 million of his own money toward the $126 million project, and said he'd consider moving the team if the city didn't back the Lime Ridge proposal.

Frankovich says Vrancor hopes to give the Bulldogs what they need too.

As for HUPEG, it wants to build a "new or renovated" convention centre, and make extensive upgrades to the arena and FirstOntario Concert Hall, said PJ Mercanti from Carmen's Group in an email to councillors this month.

HUPEG has signed a letter of intent with IN8 Developments, the new owner of Hamilton City Centre, to create "substantial residential units coupled with the creation of new hospitality and entertainment assets."

The group, Mercanti said in the email, has also had "positive, progressive discussions with the leadership of the Art Gallery of Hamilton, as we intend to support their expansion efforts."

Jason Farr, Ward 2 councillor, said he won't say which plan he likes better. He's "just thrilled" that there are two serious contenders.

"I'm happy both are taking it very seriously, and talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in investments with little to no public money involved."

[Momo26]

I must have missed this need completely. Is the Aud now obsolete? What will happen to it ?

https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...-opinions/

[westwardloo]

I must have missed this need completely. Is the Aud now obsolete? What will happen to it ?

https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...-opinions/

It is definitely obsolete. It is over 70 years old. Offers very few of the amenities that modern arenas do. It is inadequate for a population the size of our region.

This is not only for hockey, this is for the plethora of potential future acts that may choose to stop in kitchener over or in addition to Hamilton or London. It also has the opportunity to be a huge boost to the downtown restaurant scene. Which might spur other smaller art and culture venues to open. It could also add a potential hotel to the downtown/ maybe encourage a convention centre to be built.

I kind of like the one opinion in the article to move the KW hospital/ build a teaching hospital at the auditorium land. As well as allow a mixed use nieghbourhood.

[Momo26]

FYI I couldn't view the full article.

Move the KW hospital (Grand River) to the Aud site? Demolish Aud and build state-of-the-art hospital? How well does the current hospital(s) serve the dual cities?

I'm all for growth - and I really like the idea of building a marque structure/theater/museum type at the old bus station (Charles St) - I think it is being discussed in another thread (Charles St bus terminal thread?) - but in terms of the hospital, is this something the region can afford? How much money will be coming from the province, the Feds?

Let's see some plans and see what we can get behind! No better time then the present to get started!

[taylortbb]

I must have missed this need completely. Is the Aud now obsolete? What will happen to it ?

https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...-opinions/

Already being discussed over in http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/s...533&page=9

[Momo26]

Great thanks!