Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[ac3r]

Union is great. And retail in train stations/transit terminals is very useful to have. Go around the world and see how many train stations have retail in them. Grocery stores, fast food, restaurants, newspaper/bookstores, flower shops, pretzel standd...even vending machines. If they're there, people will use them.

[cherrypark]

I am honestly surprised they don't think retail/food service could work there. Its right downtown next to substantial passenger flows and key times of the day for food purchasing. I would absolutely buy a coffee and breakfast taking the morning go if something was offered.

Even if it were the route of bringing in a major quick serve chain, I would be surprised if people downtown wouldn't go there for food the same as any other storefront. Would a McDonalds in there not print money between the local tech workers, residential pop and travellers?

[plam]

Have you been to Union Station recently? Since the renovation, there is a major new food court and other restaurants, a bar and other small food retail. I wouldn't call it limited.

I tried and failed to find a grocery store at Union. There are a lot of bars and restaurants, but not really that close to the Via infrastructure. The GO infrastructure is well served.

[tomh009]

Really, a tiny food court would not generate much revenue. This is not really a major transit station, and it will see fewer pax than the old Charles St terminal. The region already has experience as a landlord from that facility with the Transfers restaurant, and I expect they decided that this was not sensible business for the region, who doesn't otherwise manage any other commercial space/tenants, as far as I know.

The main benefit would be passenger convenience, but that is less significant than at Union Station and its ilk (notably Union's retail is also pretty limited) as most of the passengers will be either arriving or departing (rather than connecting) so they will be able to easily access retail outside the hub. This makes it more difficult for the retail merchants to make the business case.

I like the idea of retail inside the hub, but I recognize the challenges for both the region and the potential merchants.

Have you been to Union Station recently? Since the renovation, there is a major new food court and other restaurants, a bar and other small food retail. I wouldn't call it limited.

Four times in the last month. If there is a major food court, I don't know where it is -- it was not obvious when arriving or departing on GO. I saw a few shops, but not a food court as such.

[danbrotherston]

Have you been to Union Station recently? Since the renovation, there is a major new food court and other restaurants, a bar and other small food retail. I wouldn't call it limited.

Four times in the last month. If there is a major food court, I don't know where it is -- it was not obvious when arriving or departing on GO. I saw a few shops, but not a food court as such.

For some reason it's down in a pit...

[neonjoe]

Four times in the last month. If there is a major food court, I don't know where it is -- it was not obvious when arriving or departing on GO. I saw a few shops, but not a food court as such.

For some reason it's down in a pit...

The York Concourse is where the action is! Bay is still a work in progress.

[ac3r]

Honestly...and feel free to mark my words...but: no retail in the new train station is going to guarantee it's a failure in the sense that nobody will have any reason to or will ever be there unless they're catching a GO train or VIA train. And maybe a local bus if they happen to need one that isn't going to be there for more than 10-15 minutes. But the LRT? Which is the backbone of our transit? Few users of this will venture into the train station.

And so it'll end up feeling like a sterile, white, barren ghost town. They'll spend - what is it...100 or 150 million? To quote the anthropologist Marc Augé from his book Non-Places (full book in this link btw, highly recommended!) - we'll end up with a "[space] of transit, place is giving way to nonplace-an empty, meaningless environment through which we pass alone". It's funny - all the renderings show tens of dozens of people in transit within the building, on the platforms, sitting in the public square. I suspect in reality we'll only ever see people there during a few rush hour periods, some people waiting on buses and then, as usual, plenty of homeless people loitering around, harassing the public for money, cigarettes, cat calling women and nodding off on drugs in the plaza - just as they did at Charles Street.

But if there was retail? A café, restaurant or two, maybe a late night modest bar, a tiny grocery store, a post office, a McDonald's and Popeye's, Western Union, a bank, florist? I can go on and on. If even 2-3 of these things existed in our new train station it could generate not only a lot of business, foot traffic/reason to be there, but also revenue for the station itself/the bills the region will need to pay off for building the pile of crap. But with none of this...I am absolutely, 100% positive it'll just turn out to be a waste of money. A huge, fancy building with no reason for the public to ever utilize lest they need to wait half an hour for their train to get there. And then the general public will, as they often do, point to this project and say: "see, why do we allow them to do this? They spend all this money on public projects nobody uses!".

[neonjoe]

Honestly...and feel free to mark my words...but: no retail in the new train station is going to guarantee it's a failure in the sense that nobody will have any reason to or will ever be there unless they're catching a GO train or VIA train. And maybe a local bus if they happen to need one that isn't going to be there for more than 10-15 minutes. But the LRT? Which is the backbone of our transit? Few users of this will venture into the train station.

And so it'll end up feeling like a sterile, white, barren ghost town. They'll spend - what is it...100 or 150 million? To quote the anthropologist Marc Augé from his book Non-Places (full book in this link btw, highly recommended!) - we'll end up with a "[space] of transit, place is giving way to nonplace-an empty, meaningless environment through which we pass alone". It's funny - all the renderings show tens of dozens of people in transit within the building, on the platforms, sitting in the public square. I suspect in reality we'll only ever see people there during a few rush hour periods, some people waiting on buses and then, as usual, plenty of homeless people loitering around, harassing the public for money, cigarettes, cat calling women and nodding off on drugs in the plaza - just as they did at Charles Street.

But if there was retail? A café, restaurant or two, maybe a late night modest bar, a tiny grocery store, a post office, a McDonald's and Popeye's, Western Union, a bank, florist? I can go on and on. If even 2-3 of these things existed in our new train station it could generate not only a lot of business, foot traffic/reason to be there, but also revenue for the station itself/the bills the region will need to pay off for building the pile of crap. But with none of this...I am absolutely, 100% positive it'll just turn out to be a waste of money. A huge, fancy building with no reason for the public to ever utilize lest they need to wait half an hour for their train to get there. And then the general public will, as they often do, point to this project and say: "see, why do we allow them to do this? They spend all this money on public projects nobody uses!".

You are absolutely right, the services are a must and do not need to cater just to the travellers. If we want the area to feel vibrant and safe there needs to be clientele there at all times.

[panamaniac]

I’ve been surprised by the negative comments about the estimated cost of the new station. A reminder that RofW really doesn’t do “for nice”.

[CP42]

How can the general public influence or have any say in advocating for retail in the new transit hub?

[tomh009]

But if there was retail? A café, restaurant or two, maybe a late night modest bar, a tiny grocery store, a post office, a McDonald's and Popeye's, Western Union, a bank, florist?

If you are a business owner, and contemplating a location downtown, would you choose one inside the transit hub, out of sight for any pedestrians (or drivers!) not heading there, given that we'll have at most one GO departure per hour? Or would you choose one of the many high-quality street-fronting retail locations available in downtown?

If I were in that position ... I just don't anticipate a level of foot traffic inside the station that would justify opening a location there, from a business point of view.

As nice as it would be for the people who do pass through there.

[plam]

An actual destination rather than something that is an incidental target, like a supermarket? (Sure, Marche Leos is nearby now).

[ijmorlan]

The retail doesn’t have to be inside. I don’t think there is anything about the north side of Victoria between King and Duke that makes it any worse than any other block in downtown for street-facing retail.

I’m Mr. put-it-all-inside but I think a portico along Victoria street linking storefronts facing the street could work well. That could be a good design whether or not there is a transit station in behind, and would mean that transit patrons would also be able to get to the storefronts without getting rained on.

[tomh009]

I think outside retail would indeed be much better in this project. Although I would personally put it on the (Kitchener) north side of King St, near the LRT stop.

[ijmorlan]

I think outside retail would indeed be much better in this project. Although I would personally put it on the (Kitchener) north side of King St, near the LRT stop.

The Victoria side is much longer. I’m imagining storefronts all the way to Duke St. breaking only for the bus exit approximately where Waterloo St. is now. There should also be some sort of provision for a public drop-off zone.

But that doesn’t preclude also having storefronts along King to the tracks, although one would have to think about how the grade works — do the stores go at sidewalk level or higher up, matching the Victoria St. sidewalk level, or even higher up at platform level?