The COVID-19 pandemic

[ijmorlan]

First fully immunized person dies in the region, a senior at a LTC Home. It does have me wondering, because from what I understand, the outbreak originated with a care worker that was unvaccinated. How can something like this happen? I would have thought that ensuring all care workers are vaccinated would be a priority -- that, or this worker didn't want the vaccine, which begs the other question: should these people be working around the vulnerable? I would think not.

No, unvaccinated people should not be working around the vulnerable, and this occurrence, together with the incidents where care homes were locked down as a result of an outbreak among the staff (even though all the residents were vaccinated), is why. Management is incompetent: either they should have already put this in place as a rule, or publicly complained that they are unable to put this in place as a rule due to poorly designed health privacy and/or employment rules.

Anybody who argues otherwise is wrong because they are not thinking clearly. Nobody has a right to whatever job they want; if they want to keep the job they have to follow the safety regulations whether they like them or not.

[danbrotherston]

First fully immunized person dies in the region, a senior at a LTC Home. It does have me wondering, because from what I understand, the outbreak originated with a care worker that was unvaccinated. How can something like this happen? I would have thought that ensuring all care workers are vaccinated would be a priority -- that, or this worker didn't want the vaccine, which begs the other question: should these people be working around the vulnerable? I would think not.

No...they absolutely should not...and this is why.

And it is ridiculous that this is not a requirement. I'm so tired of people whining about this...your job is to care for vulnerable people...get the shot...or get another job.

[jeffster]

First fully immunized person dies in the region, a senior at a LTC Home. It does have me wondering, because from what I understand, the outbreak originated with a care worker that was unvaccinated. How can something like this happen? I would have thought that ensuring all care workers are vaccinated would be a priority -- that, or this worker didn't want the vaccine, which begs the other question: should these people be working around the vulnerable? I would think not.

I guess that will happen when the vaccines are less than 100% effective (but they're damn close). I would want to check that the person is 2 weeks out from the last dose of the vaccine; I'm not sure that message is getting out to people.

I wouldn't think that care workers should be allowed to continue working in that role while unvaccinated, but who knows what the rules are.

The vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing death, even with the Delta variant. That said, the lady that died was quite old, in her 90’s, so not overly surprising that any minor illness could knock them out.

At some point in this pandemic, and depending how vaccines work and continue to work, we might want to stop counting cases and deaths. I think we have other health issues (including pneumonia) that are starting to take more lives, but this is never reported.

[danbrotherston]

I guess that will happen when the vaccines are less than 100% effective (but they're damn close). I would want to check that the person is 2 weeks out from the last dose of the vaccine; I'm not sure that message is getting out to people.

I wouldn't think that care workers should be allowed to continue working in that role while unvaccinated, but who knows what the rules are.

The vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing death, even with the Delta variant. That said, the lady that died was quite old, in her 90’s, so not overly surprising that any minor illness could knock them out.

At some point in this pandemic, and depending how vaccines work and continue to work, we might want to stop counting cases and deaths. I think we have other health issues (including pneumonia) that are starting to take more lives, but this is never reported.

It was always silly to talk about total cases, and deaths while, meaningful, should have been put in context as well. In general, the media does a poor job reporting this kind of thing, and this has been a perfect storm. We've had better context and reporting here in this forum, and I've seen on twitter as well, than the daily reports by the news organizations.

[ijmorlan]

The vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing death, even with the Delta variant. That said, the lady that died was quite old, in her 90’s, so not overly surprising that any minor illness could knock them out.

It’s not just about death. I understand that some care homes have been put back under lockdown due to outbreaks amongst the (unvaccinated) staff. In other words, the elderly clients/customers were put back in effective prison due to the narcissism of a fraction of the staff. Absolutely unacceptable, and would never have happened if the staff were required to follow appropriate safety protocols (specifically, getting vaccinated).

If the staff had, instead of not being vaccinated, been failing to properly sanitize kitchen implements, we wouldn’t be having this discussion — the staff in question would have been fired. At least I hope that’s true.

[jeffster]

The vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing death, even with the Delta variant. That said, the lady that died was quite old, in her 90’s, so not overly surprising that any minor illness could knock them out.

It’s not just about death. I understand that some care homes have been put back under lockdown due to outbreaks amongst the (unvaccinated) staff. In other words, the elderly clients/customers were put back in effective prison due to the narcissism of a fraction of the staff. Absolutely unacceptable, and would never have happened if the staff were required to follow appropriate safety protocols (specifically, getting vaccinated).

If the staff had, instead of not being vaccinated, been failing to properly sanitize kitchen implements, we wouldn’t be having this discussion — the staff in question would have been fired. At least I hope that’s true.

Yes, that’s all true. Many of these seniors don’t have much time left, so they should be able to see family but can’t due to ignorant workers. Good analogy though — if it was food poisoning due to unsanitary conditions, heads would roll.

If staff can’t get vaccinated for whatever reason, they should find a job elsewhere — and not be handling the most vulnerable population.

[robdrimmie]

I absolutely agree that people working with vulnerable populations need to be vaccinated, and I would define vulnerable populations very broadly. This is not a defence of those people, who I think are making deeply unethical decisions.

Legally though, it's not an easy requirement for these organizations to put in place. The Ontario Nurse's Association fought for years against the mask-or-vaccine regulations for the flu (eg https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practi...icy/275455). From a legal standpoint, it seems to come down to a question of bodily autonomy, which in general Canadian courts are really wary of impinging on.

[ijmorlan]

I absolutely agree that people working with vulnerable populations need to be vaccinated, and I would define vulnerable populations very broadly. This is not a defence of those people, who I think are making deeply unethical decisions.

Legally though, it's not an easy requirement for these organizations to put in place. The Ontario Nurse's Association fought for years against the mask-or-vaccine regulations for the flu (eg https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practi...icy/275455). From a legal standpoint, it seems to come down to a question of bodily autonomy, which in general Canadian courts are really wary of impinging on.

And yet somehow the bodily autonomy and safety of the patients doesn’t matter. Those nurses don’t need to be nurses — there are lots of other jobs they could be doing.

I have zero sympathy for anybody who is so self-centred as to believe their right to be ignorant of the science of vaccination trumps the rights of patients for their caregivers to follow appropriate safety protocols.

The Nurses’ Association is wrong. Hospitals and care homes should be screaming bloody murder if they aren’t able to implement appropriate rules due to excessive deference to the ignorant amount their employees. How are these problems supposed to be fixed if the people who should be setting the rules aren’t letting us know that they are unable to do so?

[danbrotherston]

I absolutely agree that people working with vulnerable populations need to be vaccinated, and I would define vulnerable populations very broadly. This is not a defence of those people, who I think are making deeply unethical decisions.

Legally though, it's not an easy requirement for these organizations to put in place. The Ontario Nurse's Association fought for years against the mask-or-vaccine regulations for the flu (eg https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practi...icy/275455). From a legal standpoint, it seems to come down to a question of bodily autonomy, which in general Canadian courts are really wary of impinging on.

We have vaccination requirements for schools.

When it comes right down to it, the problem is, like driving, we've made a job critical to one's survival. If we had UBI, it'd be easy to say, no, you can't do that job unless you're vaccinated...find something else.

[robdrimmie]

I agree with both of you. I'm only pointing out that what you assert is trivial and obvious is neither.

[ac3r]

Legally though, it's not an easy requirement for these organizations to put in place. The Ontario Nurse's Association fought for years against the mask-or-vaccine regulations for the flu (eg https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practi...icy/275455). From a legal standpoint, it seems to come down to a question of bodily autonomy, which in general Canadian courts are really wary of impinging on.

This is the main problem we are going to be facing when it comes to Covid-19 vaccines and healthcare workers. It makes no sense, though, because you can't work in hospitals, long term care homes or even schools without having vaccines for more traditional viruses/diseases like mumps and rubella.

If it turns out that they do not become mandatory, I wonder how we can ensure patient safety? For example, if an elderly person was looking to move into an LTC home, I would want them to be able to have access to knowledge regarding what percentage of the staff are vaccinated against this so they can make and informed decision on whether or not to move in. Perhaps - at the very least - we could have that information available to them when they are looking around, so they could see "_____ LTC home has an 88%...92%...98% Covid-19 vaccine compliance rate". I sure as hell would not want to move in somewhere at such a fragile point in my life knowing only I could end up with PSWs who could very well kill me.

[Acitta]

I just got my second dose at Queens Pharmacy on Queen St. I got there before 9:30 and the line was short. They started at 10. The line was much longer when I left, so get there early.

[Bjays93]

The fact that nurses fought against mask wearing even before covid is absolutely ridiculous.

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 per 100k

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 69.6
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 33.9
• Peel Public Health 22.1
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 21.2
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 17.9
• Niagara Region Public Health 16.7
• Brant County Health Unit 15.5
• Southwestern Public Health 13.7
• Durham Region Health Department 13.3
• Middlesex-London Health Unit 13.0

• TOTAL ONTARIO 15.7

2nd straight day of decrease, though still 4x the provincial average.

[jeffster]

I just got my second dose at Queens Pharmacy on Queen St. I got there before 9:30 and the line was short. They started at 10. The line was much longer when I left, so get there early.

Congrats man! Wish it were that easy for me — my employer (without saying, but it’s .gov) won’t give us any time for getting a shot, unless we book vacation time or unpaid. I can only do scheduled ones. I never did hear back from the region for my first shot….haven’t heard back about my second shot either, but I contacted Pharmasave on Strasburg & Ottawa, so they expect that should get my second by weeks end (Moderna, my first was AZ). We’ll see.