Downtown outdoor spaces

[creative]

It is a MUT!

[taylortbb]

I think there should be a path along the south side of the railway line all the way from the IHT to the (future) transit hub. The part from the IHT rail crossing to Victoria could be built now and would help the situation in Victoria Park. The part from Victoria to Park would probably have to be done in conjunction with redevelopment of that block. The part from Park to the transit terminal could be done now, possibly with the cooperation of whoever owns those parking lots, but wouldn’t be very useful without the rest and without the transit terminal.

The part from Stewart St to the transit hub is being done soon, as Perimeter/Google is paying for it. The Breithaupt Block phase 3 parking garage is at Stewart/Joseph, so they decided to pay for lighting/etc for the trail to create a good connection over to the office buildings. Stewart St is pretty quiet (effectively a dead-end), and lines up with the trail through Cherry Park. Doesn't quite get all the way to the IHT though.

It will surely get busier as the region grows. It's a shame it can't be expanded in any way. I suppose they could use the Henry Sturm Greenway but that doesn't offer much. There's also a barren lot beside that which seems to do nothing but store dilapidated tractor trailers. If the city bought that, you could make a pretty nice entrance to the park off Victoria and West Ave as well as expand it by quite a lot.

I agree a nice entrance off West Ave would be good, but I think that likely the best way to address overcrowding is to invest in the other nearby parks so they're more desirable destinations. Sandhills Park is quite close, but I didn't know about it until recently despite living here for 10 years. Civic Centre Park could easily be expanded over the adjacent parking lots (which I think the city already owns), and with some investment become far more of a destination for the neighbourhood. Both of those would give some additional options to those living in DTK, and a lot of proposed buildings along Weber-ish are actually closer to Civic Centre Park than Victoria Park.

[tomh009]

Raddatz Park and Cherry Park are also pretty close.

Maybe the city could have a "guide map to Kitchener parks" at each park entrance? Or signs indicating the distance to other nearby parks?

[Acitta]

Well, I personally have no problem cycling at a walking pace if there are a lot of pedestrians around. When I am not on a bike, I am a pedestrian and don't want cyclists hurtling at me at high speed on a shared pathway. The IHT is my main route from Kitchener to Waterloo which I take frequently and it attracts a lot of pedestrians on a nice day. I have to go slower than I would like, but I don't resent it. I get annoyed at those cyclists on skinny tires who weave in and out at high speed around the pedestrians instead of going at a more reasonable pace. I think that we might need a speed limit along there at some point.

Or maybe...we could actually have designed our transportation infrastructure so that it could handle the number of users who are using it.

What would the speed limit be? 15? 20? 25?...Because if it's 15, that's ridiculously slow for cycling, if it's 25, then that's to fast around pedestrians.

The problem is not behaviour, it's bad infrastructure. Complaining about the users of the infra isn't going to solve any problems. I am not complaining about the pedestrians, I am complaining about the city's failure to accomodate all the users of the infra.

15 km/h is not too slow for a  multi-use trail unless you are in a hurry to get somewhere, in which case you should consider an alternate route. Our pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is evolving and as it gets better it will attract more users. I think that we will see the same problem that we have in building highways for cars, induced demand. If you build it, they will come. Just look at how much bicycle traffic there is in places like the Netherlands with their excellent infrastructure. We are nowhere near that amount of use here.

[ijmorlan]

I think there should be a path along the south side of the railway line all the way from the IHT to the (future) transit hub. The part from the IHT rail crossing to Victoria could be built now and would help the situation in Victoria Park. The part from Victoria to Park would probably have to be done in conjunction with redevelopment of that block. The part from Park to the transit terminal could be done now, possibly with the cooperation of whoever owns those parking lots, but wouldn’t be very useful without the rest and without the transit terminal.

Lol...that is the region/city's "long term vision"...

It's also waiting for a different universe to be done. Someone other than CN would have to own the tracks, and an agency with more ambition than the region would have to be willing to build it.

What does CN have to do with it? I’m talking next to the tracks, not in the right-of-way.

I suppose if CN were amenable you might be able to go slightly closer to the tracks than if not, but I don’t believe that I’m assuming the use of any rail right-of-way. From the IHT up to the lake there is an existing gravel road (I believe the former railway that used to turn and cross Jubilee Dr. at Park St.) which just needs to be paved; then the expensive bit is building a bridge over the water parallel to the rail bridge; then do an agreement with Victoria Park Place; I’m sure they would be happy to take some money and stop having to mow some of the grass on the side of the building facing the tracks. That gets it to Victoria St.

Similarly on the north side I’m assuming the GO storage will move from the sidings just west of King St. If that happens, use the space for a trail. Then build a trail parallel to the tracks at the edge of the parking lot from Park to Strange. Then expropriate the strip between the factory and the tracks — the factory doesn’t need to alter its operations one bit, just take some money to allow people to walk through. That gives a nice straight link on the north side between IHT and the transit hub, with no railway involvement other than moving one GO siding (which should be feasible given the other storage site they now have off Shirley Dr.).

[plam]

It is a MUT!

And it's appropriate to have segregated cycling infrastructure that is not MUTs. I hope KW builds more of that.

[danbrotherston]

Or maybe...we could actually have designed our transportation infrastructure so that it could handle the number of users who are using it.

What would the speed limit be? 15? 20? 25?...Because if it's 15, that's ridiculously slow for cycling, if it's 25, then that's to fast around pedestrians.

The problem is not behaviour, it's bad infrastructure. Complaining about the users of the infra isn't going to solve any problems. I am not complaining about the pedestrians, I am complaining about the city's failure to accomodate all the users of the infra.

15 km/h is not too slow for a  multi-use trail unless you are in a hurry to get somewhere, in which case you should consider an alternate route. Our pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is evolving and as it gets better it will attract more users. I think that we will see the same problem that we have in building highways for cars, induced demand. If you build it, they will come. Just look at how much bicycle traffic there is in places like the Netherlands with their excellent infrastructure. We are nowhere near that amount of use here.

"Consider an alternate route"...there are not alternate routes, this is definitely part of the problem, but our trails form part of our transportation network, they should be built to a standard which enables them to be used for transportation.

I resent being told that I'm not allowed to be in a hurry to get places when I am cycling somewhere.

[dtkvictim]

15 km/h is not too slow for a  multi-use trail unless you are in a hurry to get somewhere, in which case you should consider an alternate route. Our pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is evolving and as it gets better it will attract more users. I think that we will see the same problem that we have in building highways for cars, induced demand. If you build it, they will come. Just look at how much bicycle traffic there is in places like the Netherlands with their excellent infrastructure. We are nowhere near that amount of use here.

"Consider an alternate route"...there are not alternate routes, this is definitely part of the problem, but our trails form part of our transportation network, they should be built to a standard which enables them to be used for transportation.

I resent being told that I'm not allowed to be in a hurry to get places when I am cycling somewhere.

Exactly. I suggested that cycling through the park is frustrating because I cycle through the park respectfully.

Acitta, you are suggesting to use an alternative route if I want to go faster. The whole reason this discussion started is because I don't believe an alternative route exists that accommodates users of all comfort levels. I don't believe suggesting Victoria St is helpful. I'm probably in the top 10% of the population in terms of comfort cycling in mixed traffic, and Victoria St is not a road I would cycle on.

[tomh009]

I suppose if CN were amenable you might be able to go slightly closer to the tracks than if not, but I don’t believe that I’m assuming the use of any rail right-of-way. From the IHT up to the lake there is an existing gravel road (I believe the former railway that used to turn and cross Jubilee Dr. at Park St.) which just needs to be paved; then the expensive bit is building a bridge over the water parallel to the rail bridge; then do an agreement with Victoria Park Place; I’m sure they would be happy to take some money and stop having to mow some of the grass on the side of the building facing the tracks. That gets it to Victoria St.

This is the trail/MUT that connects the Victoria Park loop trail to the IHT? Which was paved maybe last year (or the year before)?

Or are you referring the gravel road, parallel to the IHT, behind the maintenance building?

[tomh009]

Acitta, you are suggesting to use an alternative route if I want to go faster. The whole reason this discussion started is because I don't believe an alternative route exists that accommodates users of all comfort levels. I don't believe suggesting Victoria St is helpful. I'm probably in the top 10% of the population in terms of comfort cycling in mixed traffic, and Victoria St is not a road I would cycle on.

If the goal is an alternative (to the Victoria Park loop trail) from Jubilee/Park to Jubilee/David, you could cross the bridge, take the connecting trail to IHT and then IHT to David St. David St is fairly low traffic and (in my opinion) rarely high speed: my wife is comfortable on David St and she certainly would not be on Victoria St.

This is a longer route but you might be able to bike at 25-30 km/h rather than 10-15 km/h.

[ijmorlan]

I suppose if CN were amenable you might be able to go slightly closer to the tracks than if not, but I don’t believe that I’m assuming the use of any rail right-of-way. From the IHT up to the lake there is an existing gravel road (I believe the former railway that used to turn and cross Jubilee Dr. at Park St.) which just needs to be paved; then the expensive bit is building a bridge over the water parallel to the rail bridge; then do an agreement with Victoria Park Place; I’m sure they would be happy to take some money and stop having to mow some of the grass on the side of the building facing the tracks. That gets it to Victoria St.

This is the trail/MUT that connects the Victoria Park loop trail to the IHT? Which was paved maybe last year (or the year before)?

Or are you referring the gravel road, parallel to the IHT, behind the maintenance building?

I’m going off the aerial imagery in Google Maps, which currently shows a gravel lane parallel to and east of the train track, specifically the track which crosses Park St. on a bridge; the gravel lane starts where the IHT crosses said track and continues up to where the track crosses the water. If that’s been paved then that is a significant improvement already, but continuing along parallel to the tracks right up to the transit hub would be an even bigger improvement.

Not answering your question directly because I haven’t actually been down there recently so I don’t know what is still gravel and what is paved, and I don’t know which maintenance building you mean. I hope my description is clear!

[taylortbb]

I’m going off the aerial imagery in Google Maps, which currently shows a gravel lane parallel to and east of the train track, specifically the track which crosses Park St. on a bridge; the gravel lane starts where the IHT crosses said track and continues up to where the track crosses the water. If that’s been paved then that is a significant improvement already, but continuing along parallel to the tracks right up to the transit hub would be an even bigger improvement.

Yep, that's been paved. From the IHT to the tracks, and from the nearest pedestrian bridge to the tracks. The rail right of way itself however has not been paved, as scheduling with CN is apparently an absolutely massive pain. So the city paved up to it on either side, and making a real crossing is a to-do.

[ijmorlan]

I’m going off the aerial imagery in Google Maps, which currently shows a gravel lane parallel to and east of the train track, specifically the track which crosses Park St. on a bridge; the gravel lane starts where the IHT crosses said track and continues up to where the track crosses the water. If that’s been paved then that is a significant improvement already, but continuing along parallel to the tracks right up to the transit hub would be an even bigger improvement.

Yep, that's been paved. From the IHT to the tracks, and from the nearest pedestrian bridge to the tracks. The rail right of way itself however has not been paved, as scheduling with CN is apparently an absolutely massive pain. So the city paved up to it on either side, and making a real crossing is a to-do.

Now I’m more confused! I didn’t realize we were talking about a crossing of the track — I’m just talking about continuing parallel to the track. Maybe I should just get down there on my bicycle and see for myself. I’ve barely been anywhere in a year so it would be good to move around some more. Anyway, thanks for updating me on that trail.

[tomh009]

This is the trail/MUT that connects the Victoria Park loop trail to the IHT? Which was paved maybe last year (or the year before)?

Or are you referring the gravel road, parallel to the IHT, behind the maintenance building?

I’m going off the aerial imagery in Google Maps, which currently shows a gravel lane parallel to and east of the train track, specifically the track which crosses Park St. on a bridge; the gravel lane starts where the IHT crosses said track and continues up to where the track crosses the water. If that’s been paved then that is a significant improvement already, but continuing along parallel to the tracks right up to the transit hub would be an even bigger improvement.

Not answering your question directly because I haven’t actually been down there recently so I don’t know what is still gravel and what is paved, and I don’t know which maintenance building you mean. I hope my description is clear!

Yes, that's the second one, then. I said "gravel road" which what it resembles but there are rarely any vehicles on it, and only occasional people.

[nms]

Within Google Maps, there is a dotted line that follows west from where Jubilee Dr and Park St meet. It parallels Devon St for a bit and then tucks between Victoria Park Place and the train tracks. There is an informal track crossing just to the north of Victoria Lake.

About the only expansion point left for Victoria Park, that would avoid knocking down any large grouping of housing, would be the old bus station and the former post office property. Just riffing on this, but wouldn't the old post office property be a good spot for "bike in/walk in/transit in" movies projected on the big blank wall of the parking garage? I'm also curious what other larger, non-school owned, play structures there are near Victoria Park that could accommodate more than a dozen children? At most I can think of the Civic Centre Park (1km+ away), possibly Gzowski Park (next to the Victoria Hills Community Centre), and possibly Lakeside Park.