Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[Chris]

Am I the only one who thinks there's nothing wrong with the Aud as it is today? They have repeatedly updated and improved it over the past 20 years and probably back even further. I see no reason why it can't continue to be upgraded, expanded and improved for another 30+ years. I hate the mentality in the sports world that a venue is old and must be replaced just because it's 40 years old. It's EXTREMELY wasteful to replace a building let alone a large one like the Aud.

To be fair, the Aud is 70 years old.

[tomh009]

But once city hall decides this is a great idea, likely there is no stopping them.

Well ... the region does own the land, so the city doesn't actually have control in this case.

[the_conestoga_guy]

For better or for worse, I think that the city of Kitchener will be building a replacement to the Aud sometime in the future. For the sake of argument, I'm assuming this to be the case. Obviously I think there are more pressing matters for our tax dollars to go towards; I'm just operating in this assumed future scenario.

If we assume that the city will be building a new venue, I think the most important question is "where should it be constructed such that we can provide the greatest economic impact per tax dollar invested?" 

I personally look to cities like Winnipeg and London, and observe the successes/mistakes/lessons from each of them. They constructed similar sized arenas on similar sized plots of land as the Charles St Terminal. London, for example, built a new arena with minimal new parking, and they're just as car-dependent as Kitchener. Plus, they didn't have an LRT stop next door to the site. There are tons of arguments against this kind of development, but I don't think access to parking should be one of them.

I do agree that there will be increased traffic downtown as a result, and that will be disruptive to the downtown residents. But, not to sound too harsh, that's probably a good thing for the downtown businesses? Further investment by the city into active-transportation infrastructure in combination with the LRT will hopefully mitigate the car traffic from nearby residents. The remaining cars will likely be people entering the city core from the suburbs, the same people who have been saying "there's no reason to go downtown after 5pm." These are people who will be visiting downtown who might otherwise never do so, and could now have the opportunity/excuse to shop at the downtown businesses.

London is a good counter example. That being said, London downtown is also utterly gutted in comparison to Kitcheners downtown, I'm not sure it's a model we should aim for.

As for business, I'm not sure it does help businesses. People who go to an arena, might buy food downtown, or they might just go somewhere else, then drive to the arena. This kind of behaviour has been seen before, I know it was studied in LA, but I'm sure it has happened other places.

I'm no economist or planner, but AFAIK the traditional pump up downtown schemes usually fail, and the best way to actually help downtown businesses is to have people LIVE downtown, certainly we are moving that direction, but there is still huge demand for housing.

Instead of asking "where is the best place for an arena", I'd ask what is the best use for that particular site. I think "arena" would be pretty far down the list.

But I suspect you're right, Kitchener probably won't be building a new arena any time soon. Despite how much the city does seem to love these bullshit kinda investments (I'm looking at you The Museum advertising helicopter), it takes a decade to do anything and I don't think they're really even thinking about it right now, so this whole discussion is probably academic.

FWIW though, "selling this plot to the highest bidder for condos" probably isn't top of my list of best uses for the site either, but it is the one I expect will happen.

If you were to frequent the r/LondonOntario subreddit, you'd find no shortage of people who pin the blame on their poor downtown on corporate landowners (see: Farhi) rather than any failures relating to their downtown arena investment. Admittedly, I'm originally from the London area, so I'm more familiar with that area than KW (though I've been here almost ten years!). 

As I mentioned previously, I don't necessarily think that the city should be constructing a new arena, but I do think they will. And since this is going to end up being one of the city's larger financial investments in my lifetime, I guess I'm trying to be a little more politically active and trying to get the most "bang" for my tax dollars. I'm also no economist or planner, but my suspicion is that the site with the most "economic potential" would be somewhere in the DTK area. 

I do 1000% agree that selling off the land to a condo developer would be a sad waste of opportunity. As much as I'm advocating for the arena/event center idea, I've also heard ideas that center around expanding Victoria Park and creating affordable housing that are equally exciting. 

Finally, please don't lump me into the same group as NIMBYs who want a new arena but are against tearing down SFHs. I've been yelled at too much on Nextdoor while voicing support for dense developments in my neighbourhood.... 

[Lens]

Also, since this is getting talked about here is my (still unfinished) concept for the site. I'm not an architect or anything, this is just what I think personally could (and should) be done with the site.




50 storey tower
588 homes
98 three bedrooms and the rest are large, 1 and 2 beds.

31 and 19 storey towers not yet floor planned but probably another ~450-500 homes. Shared amenities throughout podium floors.

Community centre/hub fronting Gaukel St and LRT station with gyms, community rooms, office space etc.

Retail facing Charles and part of Ontario.

Charlie West and Queens Place for reference

[westwardloo]

Where are the dreamers on this forum?  Does everyone just want DT to be residential buildings? maybe I am too much of a dreamer, but personally I would love for a new arena to be built in the downtown. The current AUD is at the end of its shelf life and does not meet the need of this region anymore. A new arena would definitely attract some bigger names in terms of musical acts to consider KW instead of London or Hamilton. We could attract larger scale events, World Juniors, Memorial cup, probably could have made a bid to land "The Rock" (NLL) if we had a new arena ready, unfortunately Hamilton beat us to it. I can definitely see it being a positive for the downtown restaurant scene as well. Downtown has plenty of parking garages to accommodate the people who decide to drive to attend a concert or game.  I am sure there will be endless public consultations and studies to be done before any decision is made. In terms of a aboriginal cultural centre, personally I believe the existing police headquarters in the civic district is a great place for that. "The Record" just had an article about UW architecture students doing a project on what could be done with that building. It featured a very promising vision that I think could include a large space dedicated to aboriginal centre. The redevelopment of the AUD land would have to have land kept by the city to build a park and a community centre with a minimum 2 rinks though.  

I also am not against just developing a masterplan for the AUD land to include a new arena, a community centre, and a mixed use entertainment district with high density towers. Selling off subdivided sections (Do not sell it all to one developer) which with development charges I can see paying for most of the cost of a new arena and community centre.  The true dreamer in me would love for an extremely wealthy resident to step up and build us 20-24k soccer/ football stadium. So we could land a CFL and CPL team and host world stage sporting events.  I am just glad someone is starting the conversation about the waste of space the AUD lands are currently. It is currently a sea of parking. I do expect what ever happens to the AUD lands for there to be extreme community push back.     

I also believe the city will sell the Rockway golf course eventually. My only hope it that they do a masterplan, requiring a large park at minimum the size of Victoria park. We will never have the opportunity for another large park DT Kitchener. I would also love for them to build a small 9 hole pitch-n-put. The city of Vancouver has several of those in their large parks and I always enjoyed playing a cheep stress free round of golf.

[danbrotherston]

Also, since this is getting talked about here is my (still unfinished) concept for the site. I'm not an architect or anything, this is just what I think personally could (and should) be done with the site.




50 storey tower
588 homes
98 three bedrooms and the rest are large, 1 and 2 beds.

31 and 19 storey towers not yet floor planned but probably another ~450-500 homes. Shared amenities throughout podium floors.

Community centre/hub fronting Gaukel St and LRT station with gyms, community rooms, office space etc.

Retail facing Charles and part of Ontario.

Charlie West and Queens Place for reference

Cool concept!

FWIW, I also developed a concept, but not a massing concept, an on the ground concept. I'm not studied at all in planning, but I feel the focus on 500 foot views loses the on the ground feel, which is important for planning.

   

My plan would be to close Jubilee and Joseph to cars completely, and use Joseph to access a parking garage under the entire area. Then reroute David/Ontario to be through streets with less of a jog. Then redevelop the parking lots on David and on Joseph (and ideally the ones on Charles) and 44 Gaukel, Guakel St. itself, and the terminal into one large urban development with 3-5 storey podiums through the whole area with walkways throughout the area, with a few taller buildings in the middle.

[westwardloo]

Am I the only one who thinks there's nothing wrong with the Aud as it is today? They have repeatedly updated and improved it over the past 20 years and probably back even further. I see no reason why it can't continue to be upgraded, expanded and improved for another 30+ years. I hate the mentality in the sports world that a venue is old and must be replaced just because it's 40 years old. It's EXTREMELY wasteful to replace a building let alone a large one like the Aud.

To be fair, the Aud is 70 years old.

Exactly, the region had a population of 50,000 when the AUD was built! The needs of our region have changed significantly. Yes they have made the minimum amount of updates and improvement to keep the AUD going over the years, but you can only extend the life of a facility like this for so long. My guess is we have a new arena by 2030. So that is 80 years! That is a good life span for a large venue like this. Definitely not ridiculous to consider its replacement.

[dtkvictim]

I'll admit I'm biased, my home is right next to it, so I like, wouldn't like an arena there, but if you dig at all, it just isn't a good fit.

NIMBY! /s

Also, since this is getting talked about here is my (still unfinished) concept for the site. I'm not an architect or anything, this is just what I think personally could (and should) be done with the site.




50 storey tower
588 homes
98 three bedrooms and the rest are large, 1 and 2 beds.

31 and 19 storey towers not yet floor planned but probably another ~450-500 homes. Shared amenities throughout podium floors.

Community centre/hub fronting Gaukel St and LRT station with gyms, community rooms, office space etc.

Retail facing Charles and part of Ontario.

Charlie West and Queens Place for reference

Speaking of NIMBYs, the typical argument I'm most sympathetic to is regarding sightlines and privacy. If I building like this goes up, I'll be choosing between moving or never seeing the sun in my home again. I just want to live in a 3-5 story neighbourhood, friends.

[danbrotherston]

To be fair, the Aud is 70 years old.

Exactly, the region had a population of 50,000 when the AUD was built! The needs of our region have changed significantly. Yes they have made the minimum amount of updates and improvement to keep the AUD going over the years, but you can only extend the life of a facility like this for so long. My guess is we have a new arena by 2030. So that is 80 years! That is a good life span for a large venue like this. Definitely not ridiculous to consider its replacement.

The renovations to the aud have significantly expanded facilities, seating has increased many times, and we now have a significantly larger number of seats per capita than most NHL facilities (which are located in larger cities).

I'd hardly call these the "minimum" updates to keep the AUD going.

And why can you "only extend the life of a facility like this for so long"...what exactly cannot be done in this building?  Or, more importantly, on this site?

If we have a new arena by 2030 I would be very angry at the city government which focused on that instead of the hundreds of ACTUAL problems facing the city.

[panamaniac]

What about a Yonge and Dundas Square type set up, with some good retail and amenities do you think that would liven up downtown? I guess that is what Market Square was going for but it just looks depressing these days.

..... 

I also believe the city will sell the Rockway golf course eventually. My only hope it that they do a masterplan, requiring a large park at minimum the size of Victoria park. We will never have the opportunity for another large park DT Kitchener. I would also love for them to build a small 9 hole pitch-n-put. The city of Vancouver has several of those in their large parks and I always enjoyed playing a cheep stress free round of golf.

I would hope that only the portion of the golf course "south" of Courtland would be sold.  The original course would become a park/arboretum (if it were up to me).

[jordan2423]

How so?  The idea of a new arena, the location, the suggested mechanism to pay for it, or a preference for other spending priorities?

There are many reasons. 

For one, the priorities are wrong. We shouldn’t be spending money on a new arena, and the planner is utterly naive to believe we can get it for free. Sporting venues very often end up being a complete quagmire. 

For two, there are so many much more valuable things we can do in that space. Many want an indigenous centre, but even if you’re not on board with that it’s at the centre of our city, a high density and intensity of use is vastly better than something that gets used a handful of days a week at best.

For three, the location is poor. I hate that we live in a car dependent city, but we do, and especially a venue like an arena will demand a huge amount of parking, and because of the lack of vision of most people in our society, they won’t even consider the Benton garage, so it will result in a huge amount of parking added downtown. Worse, it’s actually a dense residential area meaning nights it is used there will be significant disruption to many more peoples lives.

Do you want a fourth reason?  I think it’s a waste to build a new arena, the Aud is fine, the current location is good, it could easily be renovated.  The same people demanding a new arena will throw a tantrum if you plan to demolish anything more than 60 years old.

Also a typo in my first:  *frustrating how few *see* it

1. That’s your opinion

2. This is a false premise. An arena can be used for a multitude of things for much more than a “handful” of days a year. You’re wrong.

3. The location is poor? You’re joking right? Downtown arena, literally right beside an LRT stop, that we spent a billion dollars to build… right beside restaurants, bars, small businesses, Victoria park. Do you understand how much of a stimulus this will be to the downtown core? Get out of your tunnel vision. As a Kitchener resident, if I’m going to a game or concert or event or whatever there is at the arena downtown and consciously knowing i can take the LRT and NOT have to pay for parking. You’re damn sure I’m not taking my car and will take the LRT that’s literally STEPS to the future potential arena.

The current aud takes up a massive amount of space and even more space because of all the surface parking. All that surface parking can be used for development of more useful things like affordable housing. The current aud is not within walking distance of small businesses or restaurants or bars or anything. It is not beside an LRT station. The potential of an arena in the downtown core as i stated previously is much more significant than the current location. Let’s get rid of the current aud and redevelop it for affordable housing
Some people on this forum are hilarious.

[ac3r]

What's hilarious is wanting to gamble away money building a stadium downtown in a mid sized Ontario region like this. This isn't a major US or Canadian city where it can be justified. Who are we going to attract with a stadium/auditorium downtown? Local residents for a couple minor league hockey games? Knitting trade shows? A weekend convention for anime or comics? A concert with some crappy band? The City of Kitchener just spent hundreds of thousands (or was it millions?) of dollars on a ridiculous Rolling Stones boomer nostalgia exhibit and that completely flopped.

We don't have the population, we don't have any sort of teams who would be willing to locate here, we don't have enough links with neighbouring regions that would draw people in (it's what...2 hours on a GO Train to get here from Toronto or London?), we have minimal investment in arts and culture - so we won't be holding Drake concerts or whatever people are into these days and so on. We simply do not need a stadium downtown Kitchener worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't even think our own tax payers would want to waste the money on that and our politicians won't risk their political careers for something that could be a complete failure.

Maybe when we hit 1 million plus people, have better public transit across the entire 3 cities and better transportation links to other neighbouring cities it would make sense. But now? No sane urban planner, politician or tax payer would believe something like a stadium on Charles Street makes sense.

And while I don't agree with danbrotherston much, NIMBYism is kinda valid here. Who wants to live in a condo or historic, low rise heritage neighbourhood next to a loud and busy stadium/auditorium? Or deal with increased car traffic downtown? Not everyone wants to take the bus or LRT. We just spent all this money on narrowing streets for better bike infrastructure as well, particularly the streets right next to this location. Or, who wants to disrupt Victoria Park - which is normally a serene, relaxing place with lakes, wildlife and space for calming recreation?

The only way a stadium makes sense downtown Kitchener is if you stand to benefit economically, but there is so much more to building a great city than generating profit.

[cherrypark]

Seconded on everyone that says the land use for a stadium here just doesn't make sense for the size of the region. I think Dan's on the right track with an idea that expands Victoria Park downtown in a bigger way (though, gasp, no way traffic on Joesph?!) and I would add to the wishlist that they do something at the same time with that waste of space surface parking behind 44 Gaukel like indicated in that layout.

Speaking of the south of Courtland park of Rockway - which I'm counting the days until they finally jettison for an actual public space as Victoria Park 2.0 - a spot like that still with highway accessibility makes so much more sense for a new stadium if that is truly needed (which I don't know I agree it is). That spot is near the LRT as noted, could be ripe for a rejuvenation with businesses nearby, and is an easy highway access because as much as you might wish it were the case, this is a requirement to keep the driving attendees out from downtown.

[ac3r]

I think Dan's on the right track with an idea that expands Victoria Park downtown in a bigger way

This was my initial hope for this place. I'd like to see it developed with something tangible - that is, residential space (a mixture of say, condos/rentals/affordable housing), cultural/community venues (including an Indigenous centre, perhaps), small retail and so on - but also allow it to become a gateway to Victoria Park by having a nice piece of landscape architecture that can create a public square and expand the park space. It's the perfect spot to open up a pathway from a more densely populated downtown to Victoria Park without having to cross city blocks of housing, concrete and asphalt. Pedestrianizing Gaukel is a good start, but you could easily create an even larger pedestrian area with clear, open views of the park and sky. No need for 50 floor condos that would just become an eyesore.

I had sketched out plans months ago and actually have two young interns who work at my firm who have been contributing just for fun as my company has had our eyes on this plot of land. We've created some pretty awesome concepts, though I don't think the region (as it's RoW who owns it) will ever go for something like this. The land is just too valuable, so they will most likely sell it off to a developer to build some generic condo towers...or god forbid, a silly stadium venue.

As another comment mentioned, we've only got so many opportunities to create valuable public spaces at this point in our evolution - such as parks, squares - in the downtown core before that space it gobbled up for development. We should capitalize on it while we can and create something that can be used all sorts of demographics. A stadium really only appeals to certain people.

[danbrotherston]

There are many reasons. 

For one, the priorities are wrong. We shouldn’t be spending money on a new arena, and the planner is utterly naive to believe we can get it for free. Sporting venues very often end up being a complete quagmire. 

For two, there are so many much more valuable things we can do in that space. Many want an indigenous centre, but even if you’re not on board with that it’s at the centre of our city, a high density and intensity of use is vastly better than something that gets used a handful of days a week at best.

For three, the location is poor. I hate that we live in a car dependent city, but we do, and especially a venue like an arena will demand a huge amount of parking, and because of the lack of vision of most people in our society, they won’t even consider the Benton garage, so it will result in a huge amount of parking added downtown. Worse, it’s actually a dense residential area meaning nights it is used there will be significant disruption to many more peoples lives.

Do you want a fourth reason?  I think it’s a waste to build a new arena, the Aud is fine, the current location is good, it could easily be renovated.  The same people demanding a new arena will throw a tantrum if you plan to demolish anything more than 60 years old.

Also a typo in my first:  *frustrating how few *see* it

1. That’s your opinion

2. This is a false premise. An arena can be used for a multitude of things for much more than a “handful” of days a year. You’re wrong.

3. The location is poor? You’re joking right? Downtown arena, literally right beside an LRT stop, that we spent a billion dollars to build… right beside restaurants, bars, small businesses, Victoria park. Do you understand how much of a stimulus this will be to the downtown core? Get out of your tunnel vision. As a Kitchener resident, if I’m going to a game or concert or event or whatever there is at the arena downtown and consciously knowing i can take the LRT and NOT have to pay for parking. You’re damn sure I’m not taking my car and will take the LRT that’s literally STEPS to the future potential arena.

The current aud takes up a massive amount of space and even more space because of all the surface parking. All that surface parking can be used for development of more useful things like affordable housing. The current aud is not within walking distance of small businesses or restaurants or bars or anything. It is not beside an LRT station. The potential of an arena in the downtown core as i stated previously is much more significant than the current location. Let’s get rid of the current aud and redevelop it for affordable housing
Some people on this forum are hilarious.

1 I didn’t say it wasn’t. This is literally an opinion forum, and the article we are commenting on is an opinion piece.  But are you really going to tell me an arena is more important than housing in our city right now? If so, you can tell that to the thousand people now homeless on our streets.  Or are you going to argue that after all the other cities fail to break even building arenas somehow we magically will?

2 An arena can host other things, but go see how often similar arenas in similar cities are used. Most nights they are empty. In London, in Kingston. 

3 this too is your opinion. You’re welcome to hold it. You can not disparage me at the same time. I’m looking at the reality in our city. 80% of our population cannot conceive of going somewhere without a car. That’s simply the reality here. 

As for its current location it is a 10 minute walk from an LRT station and on that walk you will pass at least two restaurants. I think you don’t know the area it’s located in well.  More, if an arena was so good for local businesses and development, would t it have attracted more businesses to the area?

Yes, the current area is huge and has tons of surface parking, it’s just another reason the terminal isn’t a good location, it isn’t a big enough site to host the facilities we currently have.