The Aud

[westwardloo]

FYI I couldn't view the full article.

Move the KW hospital (Grand River) to the Aud site? Demolish Aud and build state-of-the-art hospital? How well does the current hospital(s) serve the dual cities?

I'm all for growth - and I really like the idea of building a marque structure/theater/museum type at the old bus station (Charles St) - I think it is being discussed in another thread (Charles St bus terminal thread?) - but in terms of the hospital, is this something the region can afford? How much money will be coming from the province, the Feds?

Let's see some plans and see what we can get behind! No better time then the present to get started!

Just a heads up, If you download the record app you get access to most of the article free. 

It was just a suggestion from one of the opinion pieces in the record.

All I will say on the subject is brampton, mississauga, markham, Vaughan and elora/Fergus all have built brand new hospitals in the past 15 years or so. Some have had multiple hospitals facilities built or are already planned in that time frame. 

The kw hospital has had its facelifts, but was built in what 1953? St. Mary's was built in 1923? They can only handle so many additions before we need to look if it would be more efficient and beneficial to build a purpose built facility to handle the needs of the region now and into the future. 

In terms of funding, Vaughan as an example. I believe over 90% of the construction cost is covered by the province. It is a 1.2 billion hospital. 

I feel like it something that needs to be talked and thought about now, so it can come to realization in the next decade or two.

[jeffster]

I kind of like the one opinion in the article to move the KW hospital/ build a teaching hospital at the auditorium land. As well as allow a mixed use nieghbourhood.

I think the person that gave that opinion didn't really think it through: demolish aud, build a new hospital, demolish hospital, build new arena. We'd be out of an major arena for a long, long time. I am guessing with the way hospitals are built, you'd be looking at a minimum of 10 years, if not 20 before completion.

In the meantime, the Rangers would have no place to play, and likely would lose most of their fanbase. We have nothing locally that comes to what The Aud is.

[westwardloo]

I kind of like the one opinion in the article to move the KW hospital/ build a teaching hospital at the auditorium land. As well as allow a mixed use nieghbourhood.

I think the person that gave that opinion didn't really think it through: demolish aud, build a new hospital, demolish hospital, build new arena. We'd be out of an major arena for a long, long time. I am guessing with the way hospitals are built, you'd be looking at a minimum of 10 years, if not 20 before completion.

In the meantime, the Rangers would have no place to play, and likely would lose most of their fanbase. We have nothing locally that comes to what The Aud is.

I believe they said build the arena downtown. Then after the aud land is vacant, sell half to developers and use the other half to replace the kw hospital. So timeline wise that would be 10 years before the arena is downtown, then probably 20 years before the hospital moves.

[ijmorlan]

The kw hospital has had its facelifts, but was built in what 1953? St. Mary's was built in 1923? They can only handle so many additions before we need to look if it would be more efficient and beneficial to build a purpose built facility to handle the needs of the region now and into the future. 

There is still lots of space at the Grand River location. Also, old portions can be torn down and replaced. I don’t see a reason for the hospital to move, ever, unless it’s in the wrong place. But at an LRT station on a major road seems like exactly the right place. I think it might be perfectly reasonable for the hospital to be where it is now in 2100 or 2300, even if not a single brick of the current building is still there.

Also, I fear that if we build a new hospital it will be a single mega-hospital, which is the last thing we need: multiple hospitals distributed around the Region is much better. Of course, some specialized services will inevitably be at only one location (or even none — go to Hamilton or Toronto), but the courthouse model wouldn’t be good for the hospital.

[jeffster]

I'll mention it one last time that the old transportation centre is way too small for an arena. Please read the factors:

1. Accessible parking. There would be absolutely none. London, for example, has a lot of this type of parking.
2. No room close by for prospective clients (that is, shows like Paw Patrol or Baby Shark). Many of these events house their performers and support staff in trailers and busses on site. Also trade shows and animal shows (like the Kennel Club) would need to find a new place to go -- and it won't be in Kitchener. Again, with London, this isn't an issue. In Hamilton, this is a major issue. And one reason why they have so few events there. Interesting fact: Flanigans used to have a trade show at The Aud, they moved over to Lot 42, but for whatever reason, they're back at The Aud this year. No idea why, but it seems that The Aud is a better location.
3. No parking for staff. This is a huge issue. You have a lot of staff at The Aud on event nights and days. Someone starting for a 4-8 hour shift doesn't want to pay for parking at all. The wages are low enough as it is. It would also be an issue for non-management FT staff. No one wants to lose $2,400 a year after tax to go to work. Though a solution would be to have a special pay rate for these workers. It would also be an issue for Ranger staff and players and likely the Titans as well. You got to keep in mind what the tenants might want.
4. Transit isn't an answer. Staff starts work by 6 at the latest or before 6, and finish at midnight or beyond. This is typical. GRT is 100% useless for just about everyone during those times. It's also not an answer for on-call staff, nor is parking potentially blocks away <--- this is kind of important if there is an issue with the plant.
5. Less tournaments and less rentals. That goes without saying, you have a lot of tourneys at The Aud and it's not likely that this would follow to a downtown location simply due to practicality. No one wants to lug around huge bags of sports equipment from D&O garage or wherever to where the old terminal is. And it's not like simple rentals make huge cash for the city, they don't, but something is better than nothing, and nothing is worse than an empty auditorium.

Of course, they could cut down Joseph Street and use that land, as well as some of Victoria Park and even perhaps buy the property on Gaukel. That would be a solution, but it would likely be a very expensive solution. But I think if that is what they want, a DTK arena, this would be the only way to do it.

That said, I took some google satellite images of Scotia Arena in Toronto, the old Gaukel Street Terminal, and Centennial Stadium (The Aud) for size comparison, all at 20 meters. I also took one at 50 meters for the Aud Complex and Wrigley Stadium in Chicago. What it shoes is the just how small the Gaukel Street Terminal is compared to Scotia Arena (though compared to Centennial Park, Scotia Arena isn't large at all) and how huge The Aud complex is to Wrigley Stadium -- you could probably fit 3 MLB Stadium easily in there!

Scotia Arena, Toronto (20m)
   

Gaukel Street Terminal, Kitchener (20m)
   


Centennial Park, Kitchener (20m)
   


Wrigley Stadium, Chicago (50m)
   


The Aud Complex, Kitchener (50m)
   

[panamaniac]

The post from a while back that superimposed the London arena on the old transit station site pretty much confirmed, imo, that that site is too small. Apart from the lack of parking, there'd be no space for the row of restaurants, etc that you'd want on the Charles St side and Ontario St would be left with a block long void as bad as what it's like now. Joseph St would be a huge dead wall facing Victoria Park. Not the DTK that I'd want to see.

[jamincan]

I think it's obvious there'd be constraints, but I also don't think Scotiabank Arena, or Wrigley Field are good examples of what we would need. Jeffster's list is a good one, but a lot of those issues can also be addressed through design. Others are examples of how the Region has other short-comings in facilities that ought to also be addressed. The Aud isn't just an arena, it's also got ice pads, it's also used for larger trade-show/convention-type events. There's no reason to believe that the ice pads and sports fields at the existing site would need to go (and perhaps they could be expanded), and hopefully a convention centre could be built here too at another location.

The thing is, if you look at all the constraints on any project, it's always going to cheaper and easier to build it in the countryside in a field. The Sens did that, and it has *not* served them well at all. There are relatively few opportunities to bring something like an arena or stadium to a central location without significant expense, so when that opportunity does arise, there really has to be a *very* compelling reason not to take advantage of it.

Genuinely, is there any reason to keep Joseph Street open between Gaukel and David? It might then allow the space for the arena to expand further south onto the properties on the east corner of Victoria Park. and also would mean that the proposed Gaukel Street pedestrianisation would have one less street to contend with.

[ijmorlan]

Genuinely, is there any reason to keep Joseph Street open between Gaukel and David? It might then allow the space for the arena to expand further south onto the properties on the east corner of Victoria Park. and also would mean that the proposed Gaukel Street pedestrianisation would have one less street to contend with.

You could go further — include the entire Charles/Ontario/Joseph/Gaukel block (bus terminal), plus Charles / Gaukel / Joseph / wall of Manulife half-block, the parking lot immediately south/east of Ontario, and both parking lots at Joseph and David (on either side of David). Close both Gaukel and Ontario from Charles to Joseph and Joseph from just east of Richmond to Ontario (possibly keep it as the driveway to the underground service space). With all of this combined, I think the property is about doubled compared to just the bus terminal site.

If they do this, though, I want the building built around and over a continuous pedestrian route on Gaukel from King to the park. That idea is too good to give up just because an arena is built there.

[Rainrider22]

I concur with Jamincan on tis. I would advocate for the downtown all the way.

[westwardloo]

I'll mention it one last time that the old transportation centre is way too small for an arena. Please read the factors:

1. Accessible parking. There would be absolutely none. London, for example, has a lot of this type of parking.
2. No room close by for prospective clients (that is, shows like Paw Patrol or Baby Shark). Many of these events house their performers and support staff in trailers and busses on site. Also trade shows and animal shows (like the Kennel Club) would need to find a new place to go -- and it won't be in Kitchener. Again, with London, this isn't an issue. In Hamilton, this is a major issue. And one reason why they have so few events there. Interesting fact: Flanigans used to have a trade show at The Aud, they moved over to Lot 42, but for whatever reason, they're back at The Aud this year. No idea why, but it seems that The Aud is a better location.
3. No parking for staff. This is a huge issue. You have a lot of staff at The Aud on event nights and days. Someone starting for a 4-8 hour shift doesn't want to pay for parking at all. The wages are low enough as it is. It would also be an issue for non-management FT staff. No one wants to lose $2,400 a year after tax to go to work. Though a solution would be to have a special pay rate for these workers. It would also be an issue for Ranger staff and players and likely the Titans as well. You got to keep in mind what the tenants might want.
4. Transit isn't an answer. Staff starts work by 6 at the latest or before 6, and finish at midnight or beyond. This is typical. GRT is 100% useless for just about everyone during those times. It's also not an answer for on-call staff, nor is parking potentially blocks away <--- this is kind of important if there is an issue with the plant.
5. Less tournaments and less rentals. That goes without saying, you have a lot of tourneys at The Aud and it's not likely that this would follow to a downtown location simply due to practicality. No one wants to lug around huge bags of sports equipment from D&O garage or wherever to where the old terminal is. And it's not like simple rentals make huge cash for the city, they don't, but something is better than nothing, and nothing is worse than an empty auditorium.

You raise good points on potential issued with a downtown arena on the terminal site. But none of those issues can't be resolved by expert consultants. Off the top of my head...

1. Accessible parking is definitely #1 on the list that will be required to provide. If you add the old post office site there is more than enough room for a small parking lot to be added. 
2. Not an issue. These shows will find a way to perform at a downtown arena as it make business sense for them. There are plenty of downtown arena across north america that draw these types of shows/concert without having a large surface parking lot to park the tour bus at. There will obviously be loading bays for acts to unload equipment, but after that they can drive and park somewhere else until it is time to pack up.  
3. It has been mentioned mutilple times that there is a plethora of city parking garages in the downtown core for staff to park. I am sure they can work something out with the city to get a cheap rate. the new charles st. garage is less than 200m away, Duke st is just over 200m away, city hall is 200m away, not to mention all the surface parking lots in the downtown core.
4. Transit can be the answer to some people that live on the LRT line the Last LRT runs until past 1am. 
5. I think the obvious answer is that either the icepads remain at the aud land or 2 or more new icepads are built, probable somewhere in the city with ample parking for all those hockey tournaments.
 
I will say your google images are not complete accurate in terms of scale. You need to use mymaps to understand the size of the sites. See attached areas of the charles st site compared to london, guelph and toronto. I do think that joseph st needs to be to straightened out eating up a sliver of Victoria park and the parking lot across from the terminal. this would allow the site to have a bit more depth.

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Obviously there are issues with the bus terminal site, but nothing that is completely stopping it from being built there. I should note, I would be fine if they just rebuilt on the aud land, but i would want them to build a parking garage and add a mixed use development to the rest of the site.

[taylortbb]

The parking lot at 44 Gaukel is already a city lot, so using it for accessible and tour parking shouldn't be an issue. I actually think the city owns the building, and it's just leased to the Accelerator Centre.

Comparing with the London image above, that polygon includes the public square and the surface parking. The surface parking can be the city lot at 44 Gaukel, the public square can be the closed Gaukel St, and that leaves the arena itself as fitting nicely on the bus terminal site.

As for parking for city employees, somehow every other city employee that works downtown manages. Including those that work late. GRT does run past 1am on major routes since the launch of ION. Route 8, for example, has its last departure from downtown at 1:23am on weekdays, and makes a loop that goes past 2am. I think the fact that service was extended significantly later as a part of the redesign went largely unnoticed by those that don't use transit.

[panamaniac]

The parking lot at 44 Gaukel is already a city lot, so using it for accessible and tour parking shouldn't be an issue. I actually think the city owns the building, and it's just leased to the Accelerator Centre.

Comparing with the London image above, that polygon includes the public square and the surface parking. The surface parking can be the city lot at 44 Gaukel, the public square can be the closed Gaukel St, and that leaves the arena itself as fitting nicely on the bus terminal site.

As for parking for city employees, somehow every other city employee that works downtown manages. Including those that work late. GRT does run past 1am on major routes since the launch of ION. Route 8, for example, has its last departure from downtown at 1:23am on weekdays, and makes a loop that goes past 2am. I think the fact that service was extended significantly later as a part of the redesign went largely unnoticed by those that don't use transit.

Surely destined for redevelopment, no?  Although the block it sits in might better accomodate a new arena than the former transit site ...

[taylortbb]

The parking lot at 44 Gaukel is already a city lot, so using it for accessible and tour parking shouldn't be an issue. I actually think the city owns the building, and it's just leased to the Accelerator Centre.

Surely destined for redevelopment, no?  Although the block it sits in might better accomodate a new arena than the former transit site ...

The city is planning to sell a lot or two in the next few years, but nothing concrete yet. In any case, if accessible parking is required there it could be provided underground in the new building. Maybe even with a bridge over Gaukel St to the arena so people don't have to go outside, if necessary for accessibility. Parking for event trailers would have to be figured out elsewhere, but there's a lot of city owned land downtown they could park on.

[Chris]

The city is planning to sell a lot or two in the next few years, but nothing concrete yet. In any case, if accessible parking is required there it could be provided underground in the new building. Maybe even with a bridge over Gaukel St to the arena so people don't have to go outside, if necessary for accessibility. Parking for event trailers would have to be figured out elsewhere, but there's a lot of city owned land downtown they could park on.

Have you learned nothing from your time on this forum? Don't even mention pedestrian bridges downtown. 
half /s half serious

[panamaniac]

The city is planning to sell a lot or two in the next few years, but nothing concrete yet. In any case, if accessible parking is required there it could be provided underground in the new building. Maybe even with a bridge over Gaukel St to the arena so people don't have to go outside, if necessary for accessibility. Parking for event trailers would have to be figured out elsewhere, but there's a lot of city owned land downtown they could park on.

Have you learned nothing from your time on this forum? Don't even mention pedestrian bridges downtown. 
half /s half serious

To be fair, even if it weren't ugly and useless, a pedestrian bridge across Gaukel would be a terrible idea.