08-31-2021, 11:05 PM
Ok my comment generated a lot of discussion so warning for a long comment incoming, I'm going to address several things that were brought up from my perspective.
First and foremost, I really appreciate that this whole discussion has been civil because that's rare these days, I've brought up my opposition to vaccine passports at other places and basically been ridiculed for it.
I'd like to clarify that my opposition to vaccine passports is not simply just that I'm against it, but more so the lack of any sort of clarity or explanation around them worries me.
There has been absolutely no discussion or dialogue around what these vaccine passports will look like or how long they'll last until after they're in effect.
I am not against mandatory vaccination and/or rapid test (I understand neither of these methods are flawless but they are substantially better than nothing). I'm not a fan of forcing mandatory vaccinations without allowing negative tests it just seems unnecessary and contradictory if the ultimate goal is simply just public health.
Secondly, I'm not against temporary vaccine measures, like say a lockdown of unvaccinated until the case numbers drop again. That's totally fair imo and those who are fully vaxed should not have to endure another lockdown if it were to come to that, otherwise what even was the point of getting vaccinated (at least in terms of regaining your freedoms)
Currently there is no guarantee about the length, or purpose of vaccine passport systems. I would be against such as system remaining in place if we were down to only a handful of cases a day at some point for example.
It's also not been outlined what specifically the passports will apply to. Travel to foreign countries and require immunization. That's totally fine thats a sovereignty issue. Concerts and sporting events, or movies where you are sitting and standing still in close quarters for long periods of time. I'm fine with vaccine requirements for that too. Preventing someone from entering a mall fully masked because they're unvaxed. I'm not all too keen on that. Or prohibiting outdoor dining for unvaxed as well for example.
I'm also not ok with BCs no exception system and forcing businesses to use the system or risk being shut down. While unfortunate imagine if even 30% of your business is made up of unvaccinated individuals and you either have to throw out that 30% or get shut down after everything that's you've been through in the past two years. I dont think that's fair either and significant overreach.
Additionally there are some obvious differences between something like a health card or driver's license and a vaccine passport. The primary difference being a driver's license does not force you to physically put anything into your body. I don't like the my body my choice argument for vaccines it's stupid, but one should acknowledge theres a key difference between only being allowed to drive after taking a test vs only being able to go into a store if you've gotten a shot.
I don't know how bodily autonomy ultimately applies to something like this because I understand both sides, in that people should have the right to choose if they want to get a shot of something injected, but also that someone's rights end where someone else's begin and unvaccinated pose a risk to society. But then there's the question of do unvaccinated pose much of a risk to anyone but themselves, and you have ethical dilemmas if the hospital is full of unvaccinated patients such that vaccinated ones aren't able to access certain healthcare. Its messy and I think it's hard to easily go one way or another on it.
I also understand how peoples experiences shape their opinions and having grown up in Hong Kong/Communist China and having seen the takeover and how they did all these little things to slowly chip away at peoples freedom and basically hope people would brush it aside because it was trivial (basically a slow boil) naturally seeing similar types of restrictions pop up here spooks me even if it really shouldn't.
At the end of the day I don't know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but I do know that blanket vaccine passports with no explanation or transparency dont sit well with me. More than anything I think it's the precedent it sets less than the rationale behind it.
There are of course other things too, like ultimately what is the goal. Is it to prevent anyone from ever getting covid and dying from it, or is it to keep our healthcare system stable. I think it should be the latter and as such restrictions should be made according in my opinion.
Like I said very long comment. I don't even know if I touched on everything i wanted to but I'll stop now lol. Hope i cleared up my position a little bit.
First and foremost, I really appreciate that this whole discussion has been civil because that's rare these days, I've brought up my opposition to vaccine passports at other places and basically been ridiculed for it.
I'd like to clarify that my opposition to vaccine passports is not simply just that I'm against it, but more so the lack of any sort of clarity or explanation around them worries me.
There has been absolutely no discussion or dialogue around what these vaccine passports will look like or how long they'll last until after they're in effect.
I am not against mandatory vaccination and/or rapid test (I understand neither of these methods are flawless but they are substantially better than nothing). I'm not a fan of forcing mandatory vaccinations without allowing negative tests it just seems unnecessary and contradictory if the ultimate goal is simply just public health.
Secondly, I'm not against temporary vaccine measures, like say a lockdown of unvaccinated until the case numbers drop again. That's totally fair imo and those who are fully vaxed should not have to endure another lockdown if it were to come to that, otherwise what even was the point of getting vaccinated (at least in terms of regaining your freedoms)
Currently there is no guarantee about the length, or purpose of vaccine passport systems. I would be against such as system remaining in place if we were down to only a handful of cases a day at some point for example.
It's also not been outlined what specifically the passports will apply to. Travel to foreign countries and require immunization. That's totally fine thats a sovereignty issue. Concerts and sporting events, or movies where you are sitting and standing still in close quarters for long periods of time. I'm fine with vaccine requirements for that too. Preventing someone from entering a mall fully masked because they're unvaxed. I'm not all too keen on that. Or prohibiting outdoor dining for unvaxed as well for example.
I'm also not ok with BCs no exception system and forcing businesses to use the system or risk being shut down. While unfortunate imagine if even 30% of your business is made up of unvaccinated individuals and you either have to throw out that 30% or get shut down after everything that's you've been through in the past two years. I dont think that's fair either and significant overreach.
Additionally there are some obvious differences between something like a health card or driver's license and a vaccine passport. The primary difference being a driver's license does not force you to physically put anything into your body. I don't like the my body my choice argument for vaccines it's stupid, but one should acknowledge theres a key difference between only being allowed to drive after taking a test vs only being able to go into a store if you've gotten a shot.
I don't know how bodily autonomy ultimately applies to something like this because I understand both sides, in that people should have the right to choose if they want to get a shot of something injected, but also that someone's rights end where someone else's begin and unvaccinated pose a risk to society. But then there's the question of do unvaccinated pose much of a risk to anyone but themselves, and you have ethical dilemmas if the hospital is full of unvaccinated patients such that vaccinated ones aren't able to access certain healthcare. Its messy and I think it's hard to easily go one way or another on it.
I also understand how peoples experiences shape their opinions and having grown up in Hong Kong/Communist China and having seen the takeover and how they did all these little things to slowly chip away at peoples freedom and basically hope people would brush it aside because it was trivial (basically a slow boil) naturally seeing similar types of restrictions pop up here spooks me even if it really shouldn't.
At the end of the day I don't know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but I do know that blanket vaccine passports with no explanation or transparency dont sit well with me. More than anything I think it's the precedent it sets less than the rationale behind it.
There are of course other things too, like ultimately what is the goal. Is it to prevent anyone from ever getting covid and dying from it, or is it to keep our healthcare system stable. I think it should be the latter and as such restrictions should be made according in my opinion.
Like I said very long comment. I don't even know if I touched on everything i wanted to but I'll stop now lol. Hope i cleared up my position a little bit.