Manulife (King Centre) redevelopment project

[panamaniac]

Wasn’t there a thought a number of years ago of putting a glass roof over King St in DTK?

[danbrotherston]

*A* mall might do well...*that* mall never will. The people who designed that mall had no understanding of how streets worked. The mall is disconnected and separate from the street, there is no engagement...there are "mall people" who probably arrive by car, and never interact with the street, and there are "outside people" who get nothing from the mall but a mostly blank wall on most sides.

In the Netherlands, the only mall we went to, we didn't even realize was a mall until we were inside it...that's how integrated it was into the street.

I'd be interested in seeing that mall you are talking about in the Netherlands for comparison. Disclaimer: I've never been in this building, except I think laser tag was in here when I was a child? There isn't much going on street interaction wise would help this building succeed as a mall, but I don't think that means it would be destined for failure. Personally, I wouldn't care if a business was in this building or directly on King St. I would only care if it's a business I want to go to. It would be in walking distance either way. I think I would actually be quite happy to have both styles of shopping downtown.

The building was in Purmerend Netherlands, just a little ways north of Amsterdam. You can checkout the streetview here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5091947,...312!8i6656

It's just the opening on the right (I am not certain what this looks like in winter or whether it is heated), basically, it's basically a covered portion of the street. There's a larger mall called Eggert the next block over, which we never walked through, but looks similar at least--although unlike this one, you cannot see clear through to the next street when you walk to it.

As for the business...obviously when it comes to just going to a specific business that you happen to know where it is it doesn't matter all that much. But that's the big box/strip mall model, and it's terrible for small business, terrible for people, terrible for the city, etc. etc. The point of an activated streetscape is you walk along it, there are things to see. Having a mall like this harms the street experience.

[nms]

There were at least two major downtown Kitchener plans. (All quotes below from this article: "Downtown revitalization: The Kitchener experience" by George Borovilos, the Director, Economic Development, City of Kitchener, 1992-2002 (or beyond as this article was written in 2002)

Thomas Adams plan 1914
This plan proposed major changes. Completed in 1914, this plan was based on a European style layout with radial streets and grand avenues. Civic beauty was the emphasis of this optimistic vision. Unfortunately the plan was abandoned at the onset of the First World War, with few tangible consequences.

This would have been a gamechanger for Kitchener.  I also suspect that much of that urban fabric would still be here (especially if the streets had been as radically drawn as planned). Remember that circa 1914 Kitchener barely reached Victoria Park to the west, and only went a similar distance to the east. Trying to find this plan might be tricky online. Anyone up for the challenge?

The plan – downtown Kitchener 1965
The second and more influential report known as The Plan – Downtown Kitchener was presented in 1965 (The Urban Renewal Committee, 1965). It envisioned turning King Street into a pedestrian covered mall anchored by large department stores. Parking garages would be built on a perimeter ring road system and no vehicles would be allowed in the core. Offices, stores and hotels would surround the mall, interspersed by parking garages and encompassed by a ring of apartments beyond the ring road system.

It was anticipated that government buildings would move to an adjacent Civic Square to augment the existing library, old jail and County buildings. To complete this vision, $50 million in federal urban renewal funding was expected but only about $1 million was actually received. In order to implement this plan, parking was banned on King Street and replaced with the Duke and Ontario Streets parking garage, which opened in 1967. This plan also formed the basis of the 1971 decision to build Market Square and demolish the old City Hall. The second anchor, King Centre Mall, was completed in 1980, with a parking garage on the perimeter road as proposed in 1968.

There was then another study in 1981, a plan in 1987, another study in 1987, a 1995 action plan (including a suggestion to return the downtown to the "good old days"), and a strategic plan 1999-2001. (and there were likely more after 2001, but this article was written in 2002).

I note as well that the 1965 plan expected $50 million in federal support but only received $1 million. ($420 Million in 2021 dollars) I don't know whether it was affected by the 1965, 1968 and 1972 elections. Kitchener was represented at the time by Keith Hymmen (Parliament Bio), a Liberal, when the Liberals were in power (Pearson 1963-1968, Trudeau Sr 1968-1979). History and other demands on federal attention likely played a big factor here. On a side note, Keith Hymmen was also a Kitchener City Alderman, and the Mayor for six months in 1958 and again from 1963 until his federal election in 1965.

Borovilos concludes:

It has become evident that no single project, no one grand solution will lift downtown from decline and put in on the road to permanent prosperity. Lasting economic and social recovery for a downtown will come only when there is a collective vision implemented through an incremental approach. What has clearly emerged as a result of many studies and approaches to Downtown Revitalization is that the core or the old Central Business District still remains the symbolic centre of the urban community. The reality however, is that the downtown no longer relates directly to the daily lives of the residents except for those who work there or live there. The challenge is to recapture the vitality of the street. A successful street in the downtown has a critical mass of activity and of people. The street is the gathering place for people to interact. In other words, downtown must provide an experience to the visitor and resident alike. Only then will it be able to be a legitimate alternative urban experience.

[neonjoe]

Neither of the two downtown malls had much time around before their primary anchors went belly up. King Centre had Robinsons and Market Square had Eatons. Robinsons closed both their King Centre and Conestoga Mall locations when the chain folded. The Conestoga location was actually empty for far far longer and as a kid I remember that mall really struggling.
In both cases with the malls I remember being taken there as a child and they seemed busy until their main tenant left once they became clearance stores (Sears clearance at King Centre, which then moved to Market Square as a clearance store) the perception of the malls went right downhill. King Centre didn't even open its third floor before its anchor went out of business.
This tends to happen to suburban malls in the same way, they require something that is a draw to bring people in their cars even if people didn't live close. The downtown malls had another disadvantage, parking was paid.
I would hazard a guess that downtown in the coming years could support an indoor mall, now that transit is much improved and there are actually people living there, but not the kind of suburban mall dropped in downtown that we have.

[jamincan]

Victoriaville Mall in Thunder Bay is an example of where they "mallilfied" a street. That particular case was to not-so-great effect and it arguably contributed to decline in the surrounding area as well by cutting off two major thoroughfares. It's really hard to say for sure that the mall did it, though, as there are really a multitude of factors to consider.

[plam]

Victoriaville Mall in Thunder Bay is an example of where they "mallilfied" a street. That particular case was to not-so-great effect and it arguably contributed to decline in the surrounding area as well by cutting off two major thoroughfares. It's really hard to say for sure that the mall did it, though, as there are really a multitude of factors to consider.

Yeah, there's something about a roof that doesn't always work out. Arcades can work but not always. I don't know. ijmorlan's arguments about roofs seem to make sense but yet there are examples of where it doesn't work.

I often think about St-Roch in Quebec and how they had a covered street that really did not work. Works better without a roof now. Here's a quite good article in French from 15 years ago about the de-roofing of that street (I guess you can use Google Translate)?

https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/122561/...saint-roch

[ijmorlan]

Victoriaville Mall in Thunder Bay is an example of where they "mallilfied" a street. That particular case was to not-so-great effect and it arguably contributed to decline in the surrounding area as well by cutting off two major thoroughfares. It's really hard to say for sure that the mall did it, though, as there are really a multitude of factors to consider.

Yeah, there's something about a roof that doesn't always work out. Arcades can work but not always. I don't know. ijmorlan's arguments about roofs seem to make sense but yet there are examples of where it doesn't work.

I often think about St-Roch in Quebec and how they had a covered street that really did not work. Works better without a roof now. Here's a quite good article in French from 15 years ago about the de-roofing of that street (I guess you can use Google Translate)?

https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/122561/...saint-roch

I consider it an extraordinary claim that a roof, per se, can ruin things; extraordinary evidence is required. Not sure what that evidence would be, but I’m not the one claiming a roof can ruin things.

I note that jamincan mentioned that Victoriaville Mall cut off two major thoroughfares; maybe that was the actual problem? I don’t know anything about the St-Roch example, but I think the article is saying the place filled up with homeless people, some of whom (not all, but let’s get real) actually are nuisances. If this is true, then removing the roof is really just an example of hostile architecture. It might be needed, if other strategies aren’t working to make the place attractive to people for whom the stores are more important than the roof, but it doesn’t fundamentally undermine my position.

[plam]

I don't know how one would express and establish a claim about roofs ruining things, but I've seen enough cases that I have some suspicions about them. Perhaps it is a claim about pedestrianization not always working as we might hope.

[ijmorlan]

I don't know how one would express and establish a claim about roofs ruining things, but I've seen enough cases that I have some suspicions about them. Perhaps it is a claim about pedestrianization not always working as we might hope.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Although I haven’t kept up with news from Ottawa, I know that at one time there was a lot of discussion about Sparks St., 5 of 7 blocks of which are fully pedestrianized. One obviously dumb thing about that is that bicycles were also forbidden; I don’t know if that is still true. I always liked it; with the full width of the street dedicated to non-motor-vehicle traffic, it was quieter and more comfortable to walk on. But supposedly the inability to drive there made it harder to run a business. I’m skeptical, but it’s at least possible that the ability to drive in front is more important than it seems at first glance. I don’t think parking as such is the issue; this always comes up in the context of curb parking, of which there just can’t be that much due to the way geometry works.

More generally, I think the issue with enclosed streets has to do with the walls, not the roofs; it’s entirely believable that the walls built to complete the enclosure have subtle effects on traffic which end up making the spaces not function. I still claim this is something that can be fixed with careful design (including but not limited to where the doors go), but I also acknowledge that it may be harder than it appears to do the “careful design”.

[mastermind]

I was once at Königstraße, Stuttgart, Germany. I wish we had something similar here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.7774908,...776!8i3888

[ac3r]

Most German cities have streets like that. In some, they're even open to car traffic (at incredibly slow speeds) so deliveries and stuff can still take place. They work very well.

[jeffster]

I was once at Königstraße, Stuttgart, Germany.  I wish we had something similar here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.7774908,...776!8i3888

Would be nice, but our weather is so crappy for at least 6 months out of the year, it makes it almost impossible to having something like the year-round.

[danbrotherston]

Most German cities have streets like that. In some, they're even open to car traffic (at incredibly slow speeds) so deliveries and stuff can still take place. They work very well.

Even better, deliveries are also often restricted to off hours.

These kinds of things work remarkably well, they were also found in most of the Dutch cities and towns that we visited.

It's the kind of thing King St. could be...if we had the political will and the courage.

I'm not sure if it was here or elsewhere that I remarked that King St. has all the patios right now, and almost no traffic because of the road closure, so it's more pleasant than I've ever seen it, but just before the patios open, the construction will finish and it will return to the usual noisy polluted car sewer we all know and have no choice but to love.

And there isn't even a problem with deliveries as all the buildings are accessible from the back.

[ac3r]

I'm not sure if it was here or elsewhere that I remarked that King St. has all the patios right now, and almost no traffic because of the road closure

It's nice! I can actually walk across the street without having to look 360 degrees around me and ask myself "am I going to get killed going back to work?".

TBH I'd write the city about a proposal for a pedestrian King Street for half the year, but I doubt it would really matter much.

[tomh009]

TBH I'd write the city about a proposal for a pedestrian King Street for half the year, but I doubt it would really matter much.

Maybe five years from now, once we have more people living in downtown in all the new buildings. Because more people will make it easier to justify.