The Aud

[jeffster]

It's not a 'trivial' amount compared to what falls. You're looking at very cold, condensed frozen water in a very small place to put it. You can't compare it to snow.

Numbers or I call BS. Not to be blunt, but as far as I can see, thousands of trucks full of snow fall on the paved parts of the City every year. Of course, most of it never ends up in a truck because it just gets pushed to the side of the street to melt in the Spring. How many truckloads would the arena generate? Would it even be one per day? I think a large arena can afford to load one truck full of snow and dump it somewhere off site. And if this is an environmental problem then all the other activities of the arena are a much bigger environmental problem.

Also, what is the difference between “very cold, condensed frozen water” and snow? I know the arena “snow” arises from a different process so may have a different physical form, but it turns into the exact same stuff when it melts so I fail to see why it can’t just be piled anywhere that other snow may be piled.

First, it's a different snow, very different. You need to understand that most snow falls in temperature below zero, and very fluffy, an generally they average 1/10 the weight of water. Ice from arenas are shaved off the rink surface, and is heavier than 'heavy' snow. Refrigeration plants in arena's tend to operate around 10ºF (this is the brine solution temperature) - so normally you have 8-10ºF going out, and 10-12ºF coming back in (the ice temp). When you have heavy snow, it's usually closer to 32ºF, therefore a much different melting time.

I couldn't hazard a guess on how many 'truck loads' you'd be looking at, as it depends on how much the facility was used, how much maintenance is being done (which is weekly), who the rentals or tenants are. It could be 1 or 2 truck loads a day or more on a maintenance day. If you're doing flood correctly, you should be taking half a box off, and you probably could get 5 or 6 1/2 boxes into a truck. If you have 16 proper floods in a day, that might be 2.5 dump trucks roughly. Them you'd need to have staff also use a front loader or other equipment to put snow into truck.

I'm not saying that it can't be done. What I am saying is that this city has gone eco friendly and I can't see them expending large amounts of energy and man hours to get rid of snow, something that is basically done for free right now.

Unrelated, something else: I did notice with the superimposed picture -- our property isn't even close to the same size as Londons, maybe 1/2 size, if that. The building itself would fit on the property, but there would be no room for anything else, including important things like accessible parking, trade show parking, parking for tractor-trailers. You literally could not have any special events at The Aud at that location, unless you were willing to purchase nearby properties and possibly reroute the LRT. Looking at other facilities, you do notice a lot of available land (be it parking lots or simply open spaces that are cement), something the old terminal falls short of. I'm trying to figure out what options this location would have in order to do the above.

When you have a band on tour, for example, many of them stay in motorhomes/outfitted busses on the property, with electrical being fed in and they might leave the next morning. When you have shows that have more than 1 performance, like Paw Patrol, they too will stay overnight on the property for 2 or 3 nights. This, for example, is something that London can accommodate, and so can Toronto, as both have huge area's outside the complex. If we're building a new and larger facility to draw more shows, whatever they may be, this will be a deal breaker for a lot of them. For sure you'd have a roof that can handle whatever rigging setup that you may want, but you won't be able to accommodate the actual vehicles that carry the equipment. Would Kitchener be worth the hassle to renting huge amounts of hotel rooms, especially if staying more than one night? Will drivers be OK not being close to the facility after dropping off equipment? Will the public be OK when tractor-trailers are blocking the road for hours at a time?

We would for sure need to figure out a lot of things if we wanted a DT auditorium. But I just can't see how the old terminal would ever make a suitable location. It's simply way too small.

[Rainrider22]

I really don't see a site in DTK that I would consider big enough for a new arena, except perhaps in the Innovation District.  The old transit station would just be too tight a squeeze, istm - there should be a public plaza out front, for example.

Given the persistent concerns about size I used Google Maps to put London's Bud Gardens on the Charles St Terminal site. The build itself fits quite nicely, with a decent amount of space left as a loading zone for trucks. The public plaza can be on Gaukel St, now that it's being closed to cars. The only part of the Bud Gardens site that doesn't fit is the surface parking, and I think that's just fine. The city already has ~3500 parking spots downtown, compared to the ~1650 at the current Aud. I did flip the building to put the loading zone in the corner where there's space.

I have to wonder what cities are doing this successfully?  And how does this affect the type of arrangement the Rangers have now (free to some degree): https://kitchenerrangers.com/article/rid...estaurants

I don't see "free" Ion or bus tickets unless they have a paying sponsor, as the Ion was super expensive, I don't think Joe Taxpayer wants to subsidize Rangers fans.

San Francisco is the one that comes to mind. The company I work for has their HQ right beside the Chase Center where they do this, and it's done wonders for the traffic. It doesn't have to be "free", just bundled into the ticket price. The city owns the venue, they can require every booking pay a transit charge. Not everyone would ride transit, so the fee doesn't have to be a full $2.86 per ticket. Just do it like the UPass where they estimate what the ridership would be, what the marginal cost of serving that ridership is (not a ton), and then charge that. Would probably be $0.75/ticket or something.

Thank you for doing this.  It clearly shows a facility like this can fit.  This is now my number one vote.  And so close to everything including victoria park.  The facility could be incorporated into things like the Blues Festival etc...

[Rainrider22]

If I was designing it, I would do what they did at Sq1 in Mississauga, have a delivery tunnel. The vehicles drive in and drive out. They never have to reverse up to or into the building. It would be perfect... This has amazing potential.

[ijmorlan]

If I was designing it, I would do what they did at Sq1 in Mississauga, have a delivery tunnel.  The vehicles drive in and drive out.  They never have to reverse up to or into the building.  It would be perfect...  This has amazing potential.

Close Joseph St. to regular traffic and route it down into the tunnel and through the building. Not sure about grades, especially at the east/south end.

[ijmorlan]

We would for sure need to figure out a lot of things if we wanted a DT auditorium. But I just can't see how the old terminal would ever make a suitable location. It's simply way too small.

Thanks for all the details.

I have to admit, I’m more concerned with the space than I was, and while I hereby retract my “BS” assessment, I’m still skeptical that there is a real problem with snow disposal. But as to space in general, it sounds like you’re saying the huge parking lots surrounding other locations aren’t just general parking for patrons — some of it is needed for operations associated with the visiting acts. This puts a different spin on how much real estate is really needed.

[Rainrider22]

The ice is nothing, you can have a melting pit inside. The Aud already has that. The ice you see dumped at the Aud is from the Twin pads...

[robdrimmie]

I'm deeply ignorant of ice disposal so this is likely flawed in numerous ways, but would it be at all viable to dump it into the pond at Victoria park?

[Rainrider22]

They have a pit with steel grates over it. They dump the ice over the grates over it, they dump the snow over the grates and it melts... Water goes down the drain...

Here is an example https://www.google.com/search?q=arena+ic...-oqpFC8yqM:

[Chris]

I'm deeply ignorant of ice disposal so this is likely flawed in numerous ways, but would it be at all viable to dump it into the pond at Victoria park?

I wouldn't think that is a good idea as the paint from the ads and lines do get picked up by the resurfacing machine.

[jeffster]

The ice is nothing, you can have a melting pit inside.  The Aud already has that.  The ice you see dumped at the Aud is from the Twin pads...

The Aud has no melting pit. I have no idea where you got that idea. The main arena dumps at the parking lot along Military Road. Most people won't see the snow dumped from the twin pads, it's dumped out back.

[robdrimmie]

I'm deeply ignorant of ice disposal so this is likely flawed in numerous ways, but would it be at all viable to dump it into the pond at Victoria park?

I wouldn't think that is a good idea as the paint from the ads and lines do get picked up by the resurfacing machine.

That's an excellent point, thank you. Is that an issue that would be problematic for just letting it melt into the storm drains or groundwater as well?

[Coke6pk]

I'm deeply ignorant of ice disposal so this is likely flawed in numerous ways, but would it be at all viable to dump it into the pond at Victoria park?

I wouldn't think that is a good idea as the paint from the ads and lines do get picked up by the resurfacing machine.

I'm no expert on this topic, but I had our associations logo put on the ice at Lions Arena a few years back, and was able to watch the process.  there are A LOT of layers of water applied after the painting of lines and logos.  [Now as the season went on, the logo faded... something that doesn't happen at The Aud, so I assume they re-paint more].  I would be surprised if the Zamboni gets near the level of the paint.

Coke

[jeffster]

I wouldn't think that is a good idea as the paint from the ads and lines do get picked up by the resurfacing machine.

I'm no expert on this topic, but I had our associations logo put on the ice at Lions Arena a few years back, and was able to watch the process.  there are A LOT of layers of water applied after the painting of lines and logos.  [Now as the season went on, the logo faded... something that doesn't happen at The Aud, so I assume they re-paint more].  I would be surprised if the Zamboni gets near the level of the paint.

Coke

The main difference between The Aud and Lions Arena is quality of ice. Ice at The Aud (main arena only) uses reverse osmosis water as opposed to regular water. Most logo's now are thin prints that technically can be salvaged at the end of the year.

Another difference could be ice thickness -- if operators don't keep the ice to a proper depth (1 1/2") then paint and/or logos being to fade.

Generally, there shouldn't be any repainting unless you cut out paint accidental (thin ice). Occasionally for special events they will paint on top of the already painted pad, first white paint, then water, then coloured paint and logos, followed by more water. This then gets cut out after the event. This is something I didn't think about in regards to a small property -- you'd have a crap load of snow to deal with after these types of events (it could be something like Ice Capades or special hockey series, like Canada vs Russia).

As for dumping it at Victoria Park -- not the worst idea I've heard, though it would be a bit of a drive for the ice resurfacer and would wear out the studs on the tires that much more quickly. The paint that is used shouldn't be dangerous to the environment (it's water based).

[Rainrider22]

The ice is nothing, you can have a melting pit inside.  The Aud already has that.  The ice you see dumped at the Aud is from the Twin pads...

The Aud has no melting pit. I have no idea where you got that idea. The main arena dumps at the parking lot along Military Road. Most people won't see the snow dumped from the twin pads, it's dumped out back.

I saw one there when I was younger, but even if that is the case,  they are installed at many arenas.  My main point is that dumping the snow in a downtown arena is not an issue.  They dont dump it outside at major arenas in downtown's... Scotia Bank arena in Toronto, have you ever seen snow from the ice dumped outside ?

[ijmorlan]

As for dumping it at Victoria Park -- not the worst idea I've heard, though it would be a bit of a drive for the ice resurfacer and would wear out the studs on the tires that much more quickly. The paint that is used shouldn't be dangerous to the environment (it's water based).

I assume that if it were dumped there a dump truck would move it from the arena to the dumping site. I can’t imagine anybody would drive a Zamboni the equivalent of a block or more after each flood to drop the shavings.