General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours

[danbrotherston]

WFH is such a failed concept, especially within the public sector - I mean, who is actually being productive here?

A friend who is a manager for the Ontario gov't was thanking his stars when they brought back employees for a few days of the week, he wasn't able to get ahold of anyone - and of course the dreaded unions were against it

Cannot wait for large scale cuts to the public sector, so many are abusing the system

Spoken like someone who has never had the flexibility to WFH, nor someone who has been in a position where they needed to.

I'm probably not going to convince you here, but I strongly suggest you challenge some of your pretty clear preconceptions.

[KevinL]

WFH is such a failed concept, especially within the public sector - I mean, who is actually being productive here?

A friend who is a manager for the Ontario gov't was thanking his stars when they brought back employees for a few days of the week, he wasn't able to get ahold of anyone - and of course the dreaded unions were against it

Cannot wait for large scale cuts to the public sector, so many are abusing the system

Unions are dreaded and public service is wasteful. Uh huh. 

At least this user makes their stance clear...

[Kodra24]

WFH is such a failed concept, especially within the public sector - I mean, who is actually being productive here?

A friend who is a manager for the Ontario gov't was thanking his stars when they brought back employees for a few days of the week, he wasn't able to get ahold of anyone - and of course the dreaded unions were against it

Cannot wait for large scale cuts to the public sector, so many are abusing the system

Spoken like someone who has never had the flexibility to WFH, nor someone who has been in a position where they needed to.

I'm probably not going to convince you here, but I strongly suggest you challenge some of your pretty clear preconceptions.

Geez speaking of preconceptions you seem to have some strong ones about me!

[neonjoe]

I manage a small team that is completely remote, our overall objective productivity is marginally better than when we were at the office. Morale is a lot better and we do find flexibility for the members with kids increased their morale and decreased time away or off when they have an appointment/illness. I have a good team where everyone is trustworthy and takes ownership in their work, they also have all been part of the team since well before the change to WFH. Different verticals all have different results and I would suspect that if my team were any larger WFH would be slightly more neutral or detrimental compared to the net positive that we have seen.

[tomh009]

I manage a small team that is completely remote, our overall objective productivity is marginally better than when we were at the office. Morale is a lot better and we do find flexibility for the members with kids increased their morale and decreased time away or off when they have an appointment/illness. 

You can give people that flexibility even if you are in the office or hybrid, too. Our company never had a problem with people flexing their time to go to appointments. In the post-COVID world, we even encourage people to work from home if they are showing symptoms of flu (or similar illness). I think that flexibility to deal with sick kids, plumber visits or Amazon deliveries makes a big difference to work satisfaction, no matter what model the company is utilizing.

But, I agree that much depends on the team in any case.

[neonjoe]

I'm afraid that even then it won't be enough, judging from other urban examples. We are going from 0 buildings to 1 (Kaufman) to 3 (Kaufman+One Victoria+City Centre) so while the increase sounds like a lot, density is still extremely low in that area as far as downtown urban districts are concerned. We will need the other City Centre tower as well as the two towers in One Hundred Victoria before we start seeing critical mass. The transit hub will help a lot as the fact that a trip to downtown will be a breeze away when the LRT is in place. Then we'll see a clear pickup.

This brings up my biggest issue with the LRT - "a trip downtown is a breeze away when the LRT is in place"  ... for who??  Maybe a few folks who happen to live around the line, but not for most residents of the city (and by most I mean everyone in Wards 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8).  I understand the planning rationale for creating a corridor that induces development (and a long-term shift in population from the suburbs to condos along that corridor), but I really wish the LRT as more useful for more existing residents - meaning it had lines that extended out into the existing suburbs to the east and west and made it easy for people to come downtown as a destination.  I get it - that was way out of the budget - but presently I have a hard time seeing how the LRT would help me get anywhere I want to go (have you ever found yourself on King street saying "gee, I really wish I could hope on a train and get to uptown waterloo?")  ... most of the city's residents (again, everyone in Ward 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8) live outside walking distance from the LRT, which means they will have to keep driving everywhere they want to go.   

Since the province is now providing 100% funding for this sort of thing we should be lobbying for a Phase II LRT that adds loops from the outer areas into the core to augment the main line!

I manage a small team that is completely remote, our overall objective productivity is marginally better than when we were at the office. Morale is a lot better and we do find flexibility for the members with kids increased their morale and decreased time away or off when they have an appointment/illness. 

You can give people that flexibility even if you are in the office or hybrid, too. Our company never had a problem with people flexing their time to go to appointments. In the post-COVID world, we even encourage people to work from home if they are showing symptoms of flu (or similar illness). I think that flexibility to deal with sick kids, plumber visits or Amazon deliveries makes a big difference to work satisfaction, no matter what model the company is utilizing.

But, I agree that much depends on the team in any case.

Likely more of a factor of our business' location, we are at the very fringe of Waterloo and most of my team lives in Kitchener or Guelph, so the loss of time for appointments is quite a bit greater. That being said with that I do see that the team appreciates not having to deal with the parkway or highway 7. There's trade offs with everything.

[danbrotherston]

I manage a small team that is completely remote, our overall objective productivity is marginally better than when we were at the office. Morale is a lot better and we do find flexibility for the members with kids increased their morale and decreased time away or off when they have an appointment/illness. 

You can give people that flexibility even if you are in the office or hybrid, too. Our company never had a problem with people flexing their time to go to appointments. In the post-COVID world, we even encourage people to work from home if they are showing symptoms of flu (or similar illness). I think that flexibility to deal with sick kids, plumber visits or Amazon deliveries makes a big difference to work satisfaction, no matter what model the company is utilizing.

But, I agree that much depends on the team in any case.

You cannot, by definition, give this flexibility to people who are "in the office" where "in the office" means you are required to be in the office during working hours. Even if you relax it to be "in the office during working hours when not otherwise completing an appointment". Most people have a non-trivial commute, picking my kid up from school and stay with her at home is not something I can do when I am 45 minutes away and expected to be in the office. Same for any appointments I might have in the city. Yes, in theory I can go to the office in the morning, come home at lunch and then go to my dentist appointment, then go back to the office after, and then work till 10 PM because I've spent almost 4 hours of my day travelling just because some manager believes that my physical presence in a building is somehow materially important to me typing code into a computer.

Yes, when I had a commute that was a 5 minute walk, I would do those things from work, but that isn't the case for most people...especially most people with kids.

And as to Kodra's point about workers acting badly...nothing would give me more motivation to fuck off and do the minimum possible than being treated in that way. Yes, I am biased...very strongly...against that kind of BS.

[tomh009]

I was specifically not talking about child care arrangements. And in our office we have exactly one person with a 30+ minute commute. But I think this horse is dead now ...

[danbrotherston]

I was specifically not talking about child care arrangements. And in our office we have exactly one person with a 30+ minute commute. But I think this horse is dead now ...

Umm...you specifically did?

I manage a small team that is completely remote, our overall objective productivity is marginally better than when we were at the office. Morale is a lot better and we do find flexibility for the members with kids increased their morale and decreased time away or off when they have an appointment/illness. 

You can give people that flexibility even if you are in the office or hybrid, too. Our company never had a problem with people flexing their time to go to appointments. In the post-COVID world, we even encourage people to work from home if they are showing symptoms of flu (or similar illness). I think that flexibility to deal with sick kids, plumber visits or Amazon deliveries makes a big difference to work satisfaction, no matter what model the company is utilizing.

But, I agree that much depends on the team in any case.

As for commute times, I think local people in KW have unusually short commutes, at a national Canadian scale.

[ac3r]

It's funny to me how those who defend the WFH concept are those who are already the most privileged individuals on the planet. Usually they are white English speaking individuals with a degree in something and money to draw on. Of course they are going to start screaming as loud as they can when they have to get out of pyjamas and not have YouTube open on a second screen and TradingView on another.

It is a unique class in contemporary society that has no reason to exist. Get your damn hands dirty.

[Momo26]

Bahaha I love this debate.

[bravado]

I assume it needs a separate thread at this point

[MidTowner]

You can give people that flexibility even if you are in the office or hybrid, too. Our company never had a problem with people flexing their time to go to appointments. In the post-COVID world, we even encourage people to work from home if they are showing symptoms of flu (or similar illness). I think that flexibility to deal with sick kids, plumber visits or Amazon deliveries makes a big difference to work satisfaction, no matter what model the company is utilizing.

But, I agree that much depends on the team in any case.

You cannot, by definition, give this flexibility to people who are "in the office" where "in the office" means you are required to be in the office during working hours. Even if you relax it to be "in the office during working hours when not otherwise completing an appointment". Most people have a non-trivial commute, picking my kid up from school and stay with her at home is not something I can do when I am 45 minutes away and expected to be in the office. Same for any appointments I might have in the city. Yes, in theory I can go to the office in the morning, come home at lunch and then go to my dentist appointment, then go back to the office after, and then work till 10 PM because I've spent almost 4 hours of my day travelling just because some manager believes that my physical presence in a building is somehow materially important to me typing code into a computer.

Yes, when I had a commute that was a 5 minute walk, I would do those things from work, but that isn't the case for most people...especially most people with kids.

And as to Kodra's point about workers acting badly...nothing would give me more motivation to fuck off and do the minimum possible than being treated in that way. Yes, I am biased...very strongly...against that kind of BS.

Canadians generally have the mentality that children don't belong in the centre of cities. As a result, there aren't many children in the centre of cities, and quite logically those areas have stopped catering to them, and the cycle reinforces itself.

People with children can choose to live in areas where they do not have 45 minute commutes. All sorts of things would be much better if they were doing that.

My personal experience, I live near the core of KW. I have young children. I've switched jobs while living in the same place, and because I'm in the core I've been able to take transit or walk to the new jobs. I'm a white collar professional, but that's who we're talking about here, anyway- blue collar folks whose places of employment might necessarily be very far from anywhere they're likely to live, they're not part of this debate about work from home, they just go to work.

Actually, I'd be sunk if my employer went fully remote because then I would need more space- not for my children, who don't take up that much, but for a home office.

This mentality, that "most people with kids" have long commutes, because they need to be out in the suburbs, is a problem, and it's also increasingly archaic. Canada's fertility rate is less than 1.3 now: a family with children is now very likely to have one or at most two. No need to get a big house out in the suburbs.

[danbrotherston]

You cannot, by definition, give this flexibility to people who are "in the office" where "in the office" means you are required to be in the office during working hours. Even if you relax it to be "in the office during working hours when not otherwise completing an appointment". Most people have a non-trivial commute, picking my kid up from school and stay with her at home is not something I can do when I am 45 minutes away and expected to be in the office. Same for any appointments I might have in the city. Yes, in theory I can go to the office in the morning, come home at lunch and then go to my dentist appointment, then go back to the office after, and then work till 10 PM because I've spent almost 4 hours of my day travelling just because some manager believes that my physical presence in a building is somehow materially important to me typing code into a computer.

Yes, when I had a commute that was a 5 minute walk, I would do those things from work, but that isn't the case for most people...especially most people with kids.

And as to Kodra's point about workers acting badly...nothing would give me more motivation to fuck off and do the minimum possible than being treated in that way. Yes, I am biased...very strongly...against that kind of BS.

Canadians generally have the mentality that children don't belong in the centre of cities. As a result, there aren't many children in the centre of cities, and quite logically those areas have stopped catering to them, and the cycle reinforces itself.

People with children can choose to live in areas where they do not have 45 minute commutes. All sorts of things would be much better if they were doing that.

My personal experience, I live near the core of KW. I have young children. I've switched jobs while living in the same place, and because I'm in the core I've been able to take transit or walk to the new jobs. I'm a white collar professional, but that's who we're talking about here, anyway- blue collar folks whose places of employment might necessarily be very far from anywhere they're likely to live, they're not part of this debate about work from home, they just go to work.

Actually, I'd be sunk if my employer went fully remote because then I would need more space- not for my children, who don't take up that much, but for a home office.

This mentality, that "most people with kids" have long commutes, because they need to be out in the suburbs, is a problem, and it's also increasingly archaic. Canada's fertility rate is less than 1.3 now: a family with children is now very likely to have one or at most two. No need to get a big house out in the suburbs.

I wasn't speaking to what *should* happen, but what *IS* happening. I agree with you and I lived near the centre when I was in KW. But that doesn't change the fact that most people do not live that way now (nor is it really an option for most, because housing near the centre, in addition to being scarce is not designed for larger families.

As for my current situation, the Netherlands is obviously very different, and I do live in a suburb, but that isn't really relevant, I work in a different city from where I live, so does my partner (we live between our jobs) so that can't really be fixed. Certainly this will differ by profession, but it is not unusual situation, and transportation here is much more accessible and much less impactful than in Canada anyway.

[MidTowner]

Canadians generally have the mentality that children don't belong in the centre of cities. As a result, there aren't many children in the centre of cities, and quite logically those areas have stopped catering to them, and the cycle reinforces itself.

People with children can choose to live in areas where they do not have 45 minute commutes. All sorts of things would be much better if they were doing that.

My personal experience, I live near the core of KW. I have young children. I've switched jobs while living in the same place, and because I'm in the core I've been able to take transit or walk to the new jobs. I'm a white collar professional, but that's who we're talking about here, anyway- blue collar folks whose places of employment might necessarily be very far from anywhere they're likely to live, they're not part of this debate about work from home, they just go to work.

Actually, I'd be sunk if my employer went fully remote because then I would need more space- not for my children, who don't take up that much, but for a home office.

This mentality, that "most people with kids" have long commutes, because they need to be out in the suburbs, is a problem, and it's also increasingly archaic. Canada's fertility rate is less than 1.3 now: a family with children is now very likely to have one or at most two. No need to get a big house out in the suburbs.

I wasn't speaking to what *should* happen, but what *IS* happening. I agree with you and I lived near the centre when I was in KW. But that doesn't change the fact that most people do not live that way now (nor is it really an option for most, because housing near the centre, in addition to being scarce is not designed for larger families.

As for my current situation, the Netherlands is obviously very different, and I do live in a suburb, but that isn't really relevant, I work in a different city from where I live, so does my partner (we live between our jobs) so that can't really be fixed. Certainly this will differ by profession, but it is not unusual situation, and transportation here is much more accessible and much less impactful than in Canada anyway.

There should be more three bedroom units being built in new developments. But it's not really the case in a city like KW that housing nearer to the centre is more scarce than housing away from it, and definitely not the case that it's not designed for larger families. There are few larger families, anyway- families with three or more children are getting to be quite rare in Canada.

White collar workers who have children think housing near the centre is not really an option, so they live out in the suburbs, so they demand work from home because the housing they chose don't actually allow them to get anywhere (not just the office). These housing choices contribute to poor land use which makes everyone's transportation more difficult and costly, and feeds the same cycle.